GGniner
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-15-2009 07:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: There is a vast difference between Liberty lovers and what is NOW the GOP. The law and order mentality and military interventionist policies pose a problem for most liberty minded individuals.
actually, you are playing into FDR's hand. the Founders and our history during the 19th century and late 18th century was never that of Isolationism.
This myth got started after WW1, on both sides of the isle, and FDR rather than citing history decided it easier to make his case by just saying something simple like : "The world is much more complex today"
Instead of pointing out that virtually every President from Washington to Wilson, had dispatched the Military in some form overseas(often for trade purposes).
The sainted Thomas Jefferson, even engaged in a massive Trade Embargo with Great Britain.
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04-15-2009 09:30 PM |
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Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-15-2009 07:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: There is a vast difference between Liberty lovers and what is NOW the GOP. The law and order mentality and military interventionist policies pose a problem for most liberty minded individuals.
Personally...I am ultra conservative on monetary policy and very liberal on social issues with the exception of the welfare state. The term classical liberal is pretty accurate.
Pretty much the same here.
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04-15-2009 09:37 PM |
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Rebel
Unregistered
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
Me and Fo in a room would probably be an echo chamber, other than his war stance.
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04-15-2009 10:11 PM |
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smn1256
I miss Tripster
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-14-2009 09:44 PM)West Is the Best Wrote: http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/12227/
I was ready to vote Perry out. I may have to reconsider after this event.
I hope this fails because I can only imagine how bad California would become if they did it. Now if I didn't live in this shithole of a state.......
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04-15-2009 10:21 PM |
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WoodlandsOwl
Up in the Woods
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a typical Rick Perry stunt. It confirms that he is scared that Kay Bailey Hutchinson will take him out in the primary.
The "real" Rick Perry is the ***hole that tried to ram through the HPV Vaccine and the Trans-Texas Corridor even after the Legislature rejected it.
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04-15-2009 10:30 PM |
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SumOfAllFears
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
Everybody makes mistakes, and I personally have written Perry about everything from the Houston Crime Lab to Immigration and Houston's sanctuary city policy. He has been less than stellar as a governor, but if he now grows some Cohones in the face of Federal Gov. grabbing money and power as States rights are run roughshod over, I believe he has redeeming quality Texans can support.
Right now i'm supportive anyone who recognizes the ObamaIdiot for what he is.
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04-15-2009 11:59 PM |
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Fo Shizzle
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-15-2009 10:11 PM)Rebel Wrote: Me and Fo in a room would probably be an echo chamber, other than his war stance.
I've been labeled as a isolationist...GG above has suggested this. I contend that I'm actually just the opposite. I favor "engaging" those that we may feel are enemies with diplomacy,free trade and charity. I just don't favor military engagement unless we are directly threatened and "declare" war. Executive powers have been increased to the point that the POTUS has way too much leeway in this area. I'm not comfortable with this situation. I have no problem with war....but...It should be of last resort or in defense. When the body bags start coming home...there should be no debate about blood spilled.
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04-16-2009 11:29 AM |
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GGniner
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
what I'm suggesting is you hold a view on that, developed after Wilson and leading up to Pearl Harbor, of Virtous Isolationism as the founding Foreign Policy of the USA. You may reject the Trade part of that inward looking view, but not the Military part.
My point, is that is one huge historical myth. Virtually every President from Washington to Wilson, sent troops abroad, engaged in both Declared and Undeclared wars, and often times used the Military and the barrel of a Gun at Ports all over the world to engage in Trade.
the Libertarian sainted Thomas Jefferson went so far as to engage in a massive Trade Embargo with Great Britain, Global Trade plummented 90% at one point during that period.
as for modern day, a AUMF is the modern equivalent of a Declaration of War. Especially since the Constitution gives no guidelines on how to declare and what words must be used. Secondly, its not at all clear how that works with Article II powers, espeically when you look to early Adminstrations, i.e. the Founders, when in some cases the Executive looked to his Implied Article II powers over going to Congress. Jefferson for one did this on more than one occassion.
(This post was last modified: 04-16-2009 11:38 AM by GGniner.)
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04-16-2009 11:37 AM |
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Fo Shizzle
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-16-2009 11:37 AM)GGniner Wrote: what I'm suggesting is you hold a view on that, developed after Wilson and leading up to Pearl Harbor, of Virtous Isolationism as the founding Foreign Policy of the USA. You may reject the Trade part of that inward looking view, but not the Military part.
My point, is that is one huge historical myth. Virtually every President from Washington to Wilson, sent troops abroad, engaged in both Declared and Undeclared wars, and often times used the Military and the barrel of a Gun at Ports all over the world to engage in Trade.
the Libertarian sainted Thomas Jefferson went so far as to engage in a massive Trade Embargo with Great Britain, Global Trade plummented 90% at one point during that period.
as for modern day, a AUMF is the modern equivalent of a Declaration of War. Especially since the Constitution gives no guidelines on how to declare and what words must be used. Secondly, its not at all clear how that works with Article II powers, espeically when you look to early Adminstrations, i.e. the Founders, when in some cases the Executive looked to his Implied Article II powers over going to Congress. Jefferson for one did this on more than one occassion.
I fully understand that every POTUS has either ignored or circumvented the Constitution and done about what they wanted to in regard to war powers. That is my problem. What would the world look like today if we had just said NO to involvement in WWI and let Europe hash it out? I don't know...but...it would be different. The unintended consequences of governmental intervention alway occur...be it foreign or domestic.
You make a good point about just how flawed the Constitution is. I think it was the best attempt thus far to limit government. Unfortunately it failed. I wish we could get some of its holes plugged and vague language clarified. Unfortunately...I doubt that a consensus could ever be reached in America today as to what to keep,throw out or change.
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04-16-2009 11:54 AM |
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I45owl
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-16-2009 11:54 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: I fully understand that every POTUS has either ignored or circumvented the Constitution and done about what they wanted to in regard to war powers. That is my problem. What would the world look like today if we had just said NO to involvement in WWI and let Europe hash it out? I don't know...but...it would be different.
Das ist vollkommen richtig. RobertN wäre ein glücklicher Mensch.
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04-16-2009 02:37 PM |
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Fo Shizzle
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-16-2009 02:37 PM)I45owl Wrote: (04-16-2009 11:54 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: I fully understand that every POTUS has either ignored or circumvented the Constitution and done about what they wanted to in regard to war powers. That is my problem. What would the world look like today if we had just said NO to involvement in WWI and let Europe hash it out? I don't know...but...it would be different.
Das ist vollkommen richtig. RobertN wäre ein glücklicher Mensch.
I know zero German. Something about making RobertN a happy man?
I presume you think the Kaiser would have done more damage that Hitler providing they had prevailed without our intervention. I don't want to go down a path of reinventing history. We could draw a myriad of alternative outcomes, all of which are just theory and banter..I'm just pointing out there are always consequences to every governmental intervention. The possibility of causing a future bad outcome is just as possible as causing a good one.
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04-16-2009 05:26 PM |
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WoodlandsOwl
Up in the Woods
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-16-2009 05:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: (04-16-2009 02:37 PM)I45owl Wrote: (04-16-2009 11:54 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: I fully understand that every POTUS has either ignored or circumvented the Constitution and done about what they wanted to in regard to war powers. That is my problem. What would the world look like today if we had just said NO to involvement in WWI and let Europe hash it out? I don't know...but...it would be different.
Das ist vollkommen richtig. RobertN wäre ein glücklicher Mensch.
I know zero German. Something about making RobertN a happy man?
I presume you think the Kaiser would have done more damage that Hitler providing they had prevailed without our intervention. I don't want to go down a path of reinventing history. We could draw a myriad of alternative outcomes, all of which are just theory and banter..I'm just pointing out there are always consequences to every governmental intervention. The possibility of causing a future bad outcome is just as possible as causing a good one.
Anybody remember the "Zimmermann Telegram" from the Germans to the Mexicans??
That got the US involved in the war as much as the German unrestricted submarine warfare.
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04-16-2009 09:49 PM |
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Essency
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-15-2009 09:41 AM)Artifice Wrote: I think its noble how Texans by and large criticize Constitutional government except when its the 2nd or 10th amendments. Then its suddenly sacrosanct.
"Constitutional government". If you say so.
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04-17-2009 07:32 AM |
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I45owl
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-16-2009 05:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: (04-16-2009 02:37 PM)I45owl Wrote: Das ist vollkommen richtig. RobertN wäre ein glücklicher Mensch.
I know zero German. Something about making RobertN a happy man?
I presume you think
I can already you that tell you're presuming too much. I didn't pay very close attention to the "WWI" vs. "WWII", but I was just implying that anything that left the "final solution" unhindered would make RobertN happy.
edit: and I don't speak a lick of German - google does a passable job at translating simple phrases, though.
(This post was last modified: 04-17-2009 07:35 AM by I45owl.)
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04-17-2009 07:34 AM |
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Fo Shizzle
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-17-2009 07:34 AM)I45owl Wrote: (04-16-2009 05:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: (04-16-2009 02:37 PM)I45owl Wrote: Das ist vollkommen richtig. RobertN wäre ein glücklicher Mensch.
I know zero German. Something about making RobertN a happy man?
I presume you think
I can already you that tell you're presuming too much. I didn't pay very close attention to the "WWI" vs. "WWII", but I was just implying that anything that left the "final solution" unhindered would make RobertN happy.
edit: and I don't speak a lick of German - google does a passable job at translating simple phrases, though.
Gotcha.....Ouch...Man, that was harsh.
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04-17-2009 08:12 AM |
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Artifice
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
(04-17-2009 07:32 AM)Essency Wrote: (04-15-2009 09:41 AM)Artifice Wrote: I think its noble how Texans by and large criticize Constitutional government except when its the 2nd or 10th amendments. Then its suddenly sacrosanct.
"Constitutional government". If you say so.
Apparently that one shot over your head.
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04-17-2009 08:12 AM |
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Rebel
Unregistered
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
No one has criticized a constitutional government. Conservatives are criticizing what they see as ATTACKS on the Constitution. No where in the Constitution can you find a lot of the **** that's happening right now.
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04-17-2009 08:35 AM |
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cb4029
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RE: Don't Mess With Texas!!!!!!!!!!!
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04-17-2009 11:18 AM |
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