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Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
Obama pushing program he funded

Substitute Bush for Obama and Cap and Trade for Oil Company and the left would be out of their minds with rage.

Change you can believe in.:ncaabbs:
03-25-2009 11:45 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
Although I get bashed for being a right wing extremist on here, I'm actually in favor of some form of cap and trade. Not sure what we are looking at right now makes sense, but for a lot of reasons we need to get away from our dependence on foreign oil. We simply cannot survive if we don't.
03-25-2009 11:52 AM
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GGniner Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
The only thing the Govt. can do to help with securing our Energy needs is simple, Get the Hell out of the Way.

The Govt. didn't discover Oil and take all the risk, the market place and great men like Rockfeller did(and there is still plenty of it to last centuries if Govt. would get out of the way).

Govt. creates nothing, interferring here is most likely going to fail us all except for the Dems who will make big bucks off of it.
03-25-2009 12:08 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
Quote:Obama's espousal of cap-and-trade, a system that is intended, among other things, to increase the price of fossil fuels and force their replacement by energy sources that produce less greenhouse gases, has drawn fire from many economists as a huge energy tax that will weigh heavily on an economy that is already in steep recession. The price tag has been put high as $2 trillion dollars over eight years. That figure, nearly three times higher than originally projected, was given in a White House briefing to Senate staffers last week and reported by US News and World Report and the Washington Times.

Is this really what we want to do in a down economy?
03-25-2009 12:32 PM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 11:45 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Obama pushing program he funded

Substitute Bush for Obama and Cap and Trade for Oil Company and the left would be out of their minds with rage.

Change you can believe in.:ncaabbs:
03-zzz
03-25-2009 01:17 PM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 12:08 PM)GGniner Wrote:  The only thing the Govt. can do to help with securing our Energy needs is simple, Get the Hell out of the Way.

The Govt. didn't discover Oil and take all the risk, the market place and great men like Rockfeller did(and there is still plenty of it to last centuries if Govt. would get out of the way).

Govt. creates nothing, interferring here is most likely going to fail us all except for the Dems who will make big bucks off of it.
Sure. If you pay $10-15/gallon for gas. THat would be great in your gas guzzler and MAYBE(though I have my doubts) you would be smart enough to realize that oil is not near the unlimited supply which you believe it is. Heck, lets get more of that "clean coal" going so we can contaminate more rivers when the barriers holding the sludge fail or put more pollutants in the air(but then again, you guys only care about yourselves and not the future or other animals on the planet so what do you care what happens to the planet after you)?
03-25-2009 01:27 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 01:27 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(03-25-2009 12:08 PM)GGniner Wrote:  The only thing the Govt. can do to help with securing our Energy needs is simple, Get the Hell out of the Way.

The Govt. didn't discover Oil and take all the risk, the market place and great men like Rockfeller did(and there is still plenty of it to last centuries if Govt. would get out of the way).

Govt. creates nothing, interferring here is most likely going to fail us all except for the Dems who will make big bucks off of it.
Sure. If you pay $10-15/gallon for gas. THat would be great in your gas guzzler and MAYBE(though I have my doubts) you would be smart enough to realize that oil is not near the unlimited supply which you believe it is. Heck, lets get more of that "clean coal" going so we can contaminate more rivers when the barriers holding the sludge fail or put more pollutants in the air(but then again, you guys only care about yourselves and not the future or other animals on the planet so what do you care what happens to the planet after you)?

The future was nuclear power but you libs killed it.
03-25-2009 01:36 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 01:17 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(03-25-2009 11:45 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Obama pushing program he funded

Substitute Bush for Obama and Cap and Trade for Oil Company and the left would be out of their minds with rage.

Change you can believe in.:ncaabbs:
03-zzz

What does illustrating what you did all through 3rd grade before you flunked out have to do with this discussion?
03-25-2009 01:47 PM
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GGniner Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 01:27 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(03-25-2009 12:08 PM)GGniner Wrote:  The only thing the Govt. can do to help with securing our Energy needs is simple, Get the Hell out of the Way.

The Govt. didn't discover Oil and take all the risk, the market place and great men like Rockfeller did(and there is still plenty of it to last centuries if Govt. would get out of the way).

Govt. creates nothing, interferring here is most likely going to fail us all except for the Dems who will make big bucks off of it.
Sure. If you pay $10-15/gallon for gas. THat would be great in your gas guzzler and MAYBE(though I have my doubts) you would be smart enough to realize that oil is not near the unlimited supply which you believe it is. Heck, lets get more of that "clean coal" going so we can contaminate more rivers when the barriers holding the sludge fail or put more pollutants in the air(but then again, you guys only care about yourselves and not the future or other animals on the planet so what do you care what happens to the planet after you)?


there are known reserves to last the next 200 years with Oil, factor that in with Nuke Power and all our other options that are legit and we are fine for sometime.

problem is for every feasible economic Energy supply, the Libs are standing in opposition to it.
03-25-2009 02:04 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
For the life of me I can't see how the right thinks our dependence on oil is ok. Yes, I get that the left was against nuclear. Yes, I get that for far too long the left has been better at obstruction than alternatives. They were wrong. But you guys are whistling past the grave yard when it comes to oil. We finally have a guy who is willing to try to do something to fix the problem. We need to get off of it. You guys know my postion on it. Without these kinds of programs we will stay on oil. The stars have aligned for our country to make a serious push towards alternatives. I only hope we can get the leadership to do it.
03-25-2009 03:58 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
Here's my take. We need to do EVERYTHING to get off of foreign oil. We need a sensible energy policy. Let's do something. The "Free Market" won't do it here. Two reasons off the top of the head...... we don't factor the military costs of keeping the shipping lanes open and you have people who have no problem if they make money while making America less safe.
03-25-2009 04:03 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 03:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  For the life of me I can't see how the right thinks our dependence on oil is ok. Yes, I get that the left was against nuclear. Yes, I get that for far too long the left has been better at obstruction than alternatives. They were wrong. But you guys are whistling past the grave yard when it comes to oil. We finally have a guy who is willing to try to do something to fix the problem. We need to get off of it. You guys know my postion on it. Without these kinds of programs we will stay on oil. The stars have aligned for our country to make a serious push towards alternatives. I only hope we can get the leadership to do it.

The reality is that the Obama energy program will leave us more dependent on foreign oil in 2015 than we are today. Those are the numbers. If you don't believe me, look at them for yourself. If you don't understand what they tell you, I will be happy to explain. But look at the numbers yourself first.

Basic framework: Today we use 20 million barrels of oil a day. We produce 7 million barrels a day, and import 13 million barrels a day. If we don't "drill here, drill now," then by 2015 that domestic production number will be down to 5 million or less, meaning that we will have to come up with another 2 million barrels a day, just to stay where we are today. Obviously, the economy could totally crater and that could reduce consumption, but let's exclude that for the moment.

Let's consider one alternative (and a good one):

Electric cars: Obama wants to have 1 million on the road by 2015. Any more than that, and our electic grid won't hold up when people plug in their cars to recharge them. That will save us about 100,000 barrels of oil a day. That excludes, of course, whatever energy we will need to generate the electricity to charge those puppies up at night.

Now, you tell me where we get the rest.
03-25-2009 04:12 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 03:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We finally have a guy who is willing to try to do something to fix the problem. We need to get off of it.

I'll assume for a moment that we all agree one of the reasons we need to get off of oil is because of its high cost. With that in mind, I'm at a loss to understand the reasoning of making it even costlier. Just about everything we do requires energy and taxing an entire nation into forcing it to switch to something else when there is nothing to swith to doesn't make sense. Perhaps this would make sense if there were logical alternatives, but there aren't any.

For those of you out there who don't believe in the "trickle down" theory just wait until Obama hits energy sources with $2 trillion in taxes because just about everything you use or consume doubles in price.
03-25-2009 04:12 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 04:03 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Here's my take. We need to do EVERYTHING to get off of foreign oil. We need a sensible energy policy. Let's do something. The "Free Market" won't do it here. Two reasons off the top of the head...... we don't factor the military costs of keeping the shipping lanes open and you have people who have no problem if they make money while making America less safe.

I agree that we need to do EVERYTHING.

Where I think we disagree is that what Obama has proposed comes nowhere near doing everything, and in fact comes nowhere near doing enough just to keep the situation from getting worse.

One thing for sure, the free market would do a much better job of doing everything than Obama's "energy plan" will. Just like the free market would do a much better job of stimulating the economy than Obama's "stimulus plan" will.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2009 04:16 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-25-2009 04:14 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 04:12 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(03-25-2009 03:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We finally have a guy who is willing to try to do something to fix the problem. We need to get off of it.
I'll assume for a moment that we all agree one of the reasons we need to get off of oil is because of its high cost. With that in mind, I'm at a loss to understand the reasoning of making it even costlier. Just about everything we do requires energy and taxing an entire nation into forcing it to switch to something else when there is nothing to swith to doesn't make sense. Perhaps this would make sense if there were logical alternatives, but there aren't any.
For those of you out there who don't believe in the "trickle down" theory just wait until Obama hits energy sources with $2 trillion in taxes because just about everything you use or consume doubles in price.

I'm not willing to give Obama credit until he actually proposes something that will fix the problem.
Proposing things that will make it worse, not better, will garner very little support from me.
And right now, what he's doing is coming up with things that will make it worse.
03-25-2009 04:16 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
They were selling these home windmills at the Cleveland Home and Garden show last month. They were around 17,500 dollars. We could charge cars with these at night and we wouldn't have your energy grid problem. Ramp up nuclear. If you really want to make a dent..... invent a battery that can store electricity effectively.................... if we do that........... problem solved...............
03-25-2009 04:31 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
Someone on here was talking about google investing 10% of their profits into alternatives. There's some interesting work with algae growing in plastic bags. We are going to find an alternative. They are growing some type of tree in Fl. that can make bio-diesel. We are going to find something. We just need to make oil more expensive to drive the market.
03-25-2009 04:36 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 04:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  They were selling these home windmills at the Cleveland Home and Garden show last month. They were around 17,500 dollars. We could charge cars with these at night and we wouldn't have your energy grid problem. Ramp up nuclear. If you really want to make a dent..... invent a battery that can store electricity effectively.................... if we do that........... problem solved...............

If you pay $17,500 for a windmill, that's 8000 gallons of gasoline you have to save to break even. That's 160,000 miles you have to drive on electricity to break even. And the car to use that electricity is going to cost you $35,000. Not many Americans does that pay off for. And what happens if the wind isn't blowing when you need to charge your car?

I'm not saying windmills aren't a good idea. What I'm saying is that the reality is that some of these things can make a dent in the process, but we need to be careful to distinguish between things that can "make a dent" and things that can actually do enough to comprise solutions.

This windmill is the kind of thing that will make you feel better, but it won't make a big enough contribution to the solution.

Ramping up nuclear and inventing that battery are two things that will make a difference--particularly that battery. And if we can develop that battery on a large enough scale, that makes wind and solar much more practical--because now you can generate electricity when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, and use it when they aren't.
03-25-2009 04:42 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 04:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  They were selling these home windmills at the Cleveland Home and Garden show last month. They were around 17,500 dollars. We could charge cars with these at night and we wouldn't have your energy grid problem. Ramp up nuclear. If you really want to make a dent..... invent a battery that can store electricity effectively.................... if we do that........... problem solved...............

The problems with batteries are well known. They have a finite number of times they can be recharged, recharging a battery without deep cycling it (charging it when it's completely dead) gives the battery a memory and it will fail to hold a full charge for the manufacturers specified length of time, and when their life is over they create a waste hazard. Another problem with batteries is that when they're low in their charge they take a while to recharge, sometimes hours. With gas you just pull into a gas station and in a few minutes you have a full tank and that full tank will take you much farther than a battery could. And if you remove enough gas driven vehicles from the road then how do you recoup the tax money that keeps the roads maintained? Batteries are not a viable solution, they're just a way of giving the environmentalists orgasms. And if all this wasn't enough, a battery powered car has to be extremely light in order to have a practical mileage per charge ratio. When these light cars start crashing into heavy gas powered cars people are going to start dying by the (literally) car load.
03-25-2009 04:44 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Obama's Ties to "Big" Cap and Trade
(03-25-2009 04:36 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Someone on here was talking about google investing 10% of their profits into alternatives. There's some interesting work with algae growing in plastic bags. We are going to find an alternative. They are growing some type of tree in Fl. that can make bio-diesel. We are going to find something. We just need to make oil more expensive to drive the market.

I'm all for alternatives. It's just that we are--optimistically--20 years away from having any alternative that is currently in a lab contribute on a scale that can matter.

What we can do is what Brasil did:
1. Go with everything now--drill here drill now, Pickens plan, solar, wind, sugar cane ethanol, you name it
2. Instead of waiting for perfect technology, go with what we have on the ground now--sugar cane ethanol, current solar technology
3. Don't be afraid of letting people make a profit--Brasil would never have solved their problem without Petrobras being a player, just as JFK's man on the moon would never have happened if Martin Marietta and Lockheed and a whole bunch of others hadn't been able to make big profits off the space program
03-25-2009 04:46 PM
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