(03-14-2009 10:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 10:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 09:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 09:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  There is absolutely NO reason to allow an authoritarian government to take over assets close to your home. I'm with Patton. Russia has NEVER been a country to trust.

Turn that around (and substitute opposition for totalitarian) and you should see how Russia feels about the Polish missiles.
I don't trust Russia either. Nor do I trust anyone, for that matter. So why get in their face over something that protects not us but somebody else (whom I don't trust 100% either).

Who has the history of oppression here, Russia? Or the United States and Poland?

That's not the point I'm making.
We're trying to micromanage the world and it just p*$$*$ people off.
What we have here is a very predictable reaction from the Russians. So my question is did we fail to predict it or did we decide that we'd live with it. Neither of those seems to make sense to me. And I can't quite figure out why it's important enough to risk this to put missiles in Poland.

I think the last administration failed to anticipate that Putin would turn this into a political issue. They looked at it from the point of view that since the missiles in Poland aren't designed to hit Russian missiles (and can't ) why would the Russians be pissed?

There are other issues as well... Georgia and Ukraine getting cozy with the West. US encouraging their membership in NATO, etc. All of that hit a nerve with the Russians.

The thing that surprises me is that since Obama announced that he would reconsider the base in Poland, you haven't seen any moderation from the Russians.

That begs the question: What more do they want?

(03-15-2009 01:29 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 11:17 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 10:17 PM)RobertN Wrote:  You are a warmonger. You are the one who want to go nuke anyone that doesn't live like "us".

I'm all for going nuke on anyone who A) doesn't value freedom and B) is a threat to us.

No, the "freedom to one person isn't the same as freedom to another" argument doesn't work with me.

I know. You are a warmonger too. You want the US in a perpetual state of war. Some people get "stimulated by porn, you and several others on here get "stimulated" by war.

I didn't say A or B. I said A AND B, Neville. Context, it would behoove you to understand the concept.

(03-15-2009 06:56 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 10:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  That's not the point I'm making.
We're trying to micromanage the world and it just p*$$*$ people off.
What we have here is a very predictable reaction from the Russians. So my question is did we fail to predict it or did we decide that we'd live with it. Neither of those seems to make sense to me. And I can't quite figure out why it's important enough to risk this to put missiles in Poland.

I think the last administration failed to anticipate that Putin would turn this into a political issue. They looked at it from the point of view that since the missiles in Poland aren't designed to hit Russian missiles (and can't ) why would the Russians be pissed?
There are other issues as well... Georgia and Ukraine getting cozy with the West. US encouraging their membership in NATO, etc. All of that hit a nerve with the Russians.
The thing that surprises me is that since Obama announced that he would reconsider the base in Poland, you haven't seen any moderation from the Russians.
That begs the question: What more do they want?

The toothpaste is out of the tube now, unfortunately. The Russians pretty much have us over a barrel unless we are willing to live with Russian bombers in Cuba and/or Venezuela.

This is hardly the only problem that "(t)he last administration failed to anticipate."

They have us by the balls because they know our pResident is too pu55y to do anything about it.

However, they underestimate the will of the people in the country that WILL protect and defend her to the death. No, I don't think Obama supporters fall into that camp.

(03-14-2009 09:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  There is absolutely NO reason to allow an authoritarian government to take over assets close to your home. I'm with Patton. Russia has NEVER been a country to trust.

before the French Revolution you could trust them, they were conservative along with rest of Europe.....this was a long time ago, Christendom days. the idiocy of the french revolution and its thinkers spread East, liberalism spread West...now its a hodge podge.

since then not so much of course......trust but verify.

(03-15-2009 08:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-15-2009 06:56 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(03-14-2009 10:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  That's not the point I'm making.
We're trying to micromanage the world and it just p*$$*$ people off.
What we have here is a very predictable reaction from the Russians. So my question is did we fail to predict it or did we decide that we'd live with it. Neither of those seems to make sense to me. And I can't quite figure out why it's important enough to risk this to put missiles in Poland.

I think the last administration failed to anticipate that Putin would turn this into a political issue. They looked at it from the point of view that since the missiles in Poland aren't designed to hit Russian missiles (and can't ) why would the Russians be pissed?
There are other issues as well... Georgia and Ukraine getting cozy with the West. US encouraging their membership in NATO, etc. All of that hit a nerve with the Russians.
The thing that surprises me is that since Obama announced that he would reconsider the base in Poland, you haven't seen any moderation from the Russians.
That begs the question: What more do they want?

The toothpaste is out of the tube now, unfortunately. The Russians pretty much have us over a barrel unless we are willing to live with Russian bombers in Cuba and/or Venezuela.

This is hardly the only problem that "(t)he last administration failed to anticipate."

If we cancel the deployment of ABM missiles to Poland, and the Russians set up an air base in the Caribbean anyway, it just gives the Republicans another issue.

(03-15-2009 07:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Because so far at lest Obama hasn't done anything to make it worse. When he does do something about it, I'm quite certain he'll screw this one up worse too.

yeah he has, he projected weakness for the last 4 plus years on the Global stage then got elected under its banner.


best off we've been was right after Saddam fell, since the world thought we were bluffing. Then Lybia/Syria both pissed in their pants, we want be seeing such situations again. Politics domestically interferred to their advantage abroad.

never forget Putin is KGB, and also what all they have reportedly done the last several years. They are evil to the core and have every intention of re-instating their "evil empire" again.

That starts with Ukraine and Georgia and the Oil Pipelines that connect to Western Europe.

(03-15-2009 09:40 PM)GGniner Wrote:  never forget Putin is KGB, and also what all they have reportedly done the last several years. They are evil to the core and have every intention of re-instating their "evil empire" again.

That starts with Ukraine and Georgia and the Oil Pipelines that connect to Western Europe.

People like RobertN and these civil libertarians would have the Communists surrounding us and still not want to do anything about it. ......and it would be way too GDamn late.

and for the moral relativist, let me know when the United States does this to say the leader of Canada



and thats just scratching the surface of recent KGB linked activities.

(03-15-2009 09:50 PM)GGniner Wrote:  and thats just scratching the surface of recent KGB linked activities.

Yeah, he's lucky he isn't dead. ....but the liberals are no different.

Think about it, they lay claims of "Fascism" towards the right but if you look at their argument, it shows them to be complete and total morons. Fascism and Socialism BOTH exist on the left plane of politics. BOTH are anti-Capitalist. Problem is, when they DO want to step up, we have TON of freedom-loving conservatives in this country who WILL put a damn bullet in ANY of these motherfvckers who want to compromise or take it.


.....that includes you, Robert.

(03-15-2009 09:40 PM)GGniner Wrote:  never forget Putin is KGB, and also what all they have reportedly done the last several years. They are evil to the core and have every intention of re-instating their "evil empire" again.

That starts with Ukraine and Georgia and the Oil Pipelines that connect to Western Europe.

The head of TransNeft, the Russian Pipeline operator, is one of Putin's buddies from the KGB.

Medvedev isn't fomer KGB --but he has pretty solid links to the Russian Mafia.

Russia is basically a corrupt third world country. It's a "Mexico" but with nuclear weapons.

Medvedev is a f'n puppet.

(03-15-2009 10:19 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(03-15-2009 09:40 PM)GGniner Wrote:  never forget Putin is KGB, and also what all they have reportedly done the last several years. They are evil to the core and have every intention of re-instating their "evil empire" again.

That starts with Ukraine and Georgia and the Oil Pipelines that connect to Western Europe.

The head of TransNeft, the Russian Pipeline operator, is one of Putin's buddies from the KGB.

Medvedev isn't fomer KGB --but he has pretty solid links to the Russian Mafia.

Russia is basically a corrupt third world country. It's a "Mexico" but with nuclear weapons.

yeah they got nothing in terms of real power except for Nukes(which is alot)....which is why they are seizing Oil and Oil Infrastructure wherever they can get their hands on it.

(03-15-2009 10:23 PM)GGniner Wrote:  

(03-15-2009 10:19 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(03-15-2009 09:40 PM)GGniner Wrote:  never forget Putin is KGB, and also what all they have reportedly done the last several years. They are evil to the core and have every intention of re-instating their "evil empire" again.

That starts with Ukraine and Georgia and the Oil Pipelines that connect to Western Europe.

The head of TransNeft, the Russian Pipeline operator, is one of Putin's buddies from the KGB.

Medvedev isn't fomer KGB --but he has pretty solid links to the Russian Mafia.

Russia is basically a corrupt third world country. It's a "Mexico" but with nuclear weapons.

yeah they got nothing in terms of real power except for Nukes(which is alot)....which is why they are seizing Oil and Oil Infrastructure wherever they can get their hands on it.

The START Treaty expires with Russia in December 2009. No progress on a START II. So expect them to start putting their MIRV's back on their existing ICBM's and building more, if they have the funds.

Looking at my "cheat sheet" the Russians have 16 Blackjacks, 4 nuclear missile submarines they can deploy, and 756 ICBM's. Of the ICBM's about 100 have been built since the mid 1990's and there is a pretty good chance the others won't work, for lack of upkeep.

No conventional threat to speak of however.

ABM Missile has cost $100 billion, and is still not close to operational. It's deployment and operational costs could cost another $100 billion. We have no choice if Iran and Korea and any other nation looks for the nuclear checkmate. We cannot un-ring that bell so we must push forward because any precieved weakness could cost millions of lives and cost trillions of dollars. ObamaPuppy is weak and will probably be a quitter, and the Russians know he is not ready for prime time.

I don't pretend to be an expert in this field, but I am aware of mutually assured destruction. Don't we have subs that can end the world as we know it in deployment all the time. All of this is just saber rattling imho. A big fuss over nothing. If their destruction is assured they aren't going to start a nuclear war. What am I missing?????????????????

I'm going to have to ask WMD... What is a blackjack i googled it and I get eevrything from strip clubs to gambling DVD's.

The Russian made Tu-160 Blackjack can carry nuclear and conventional weapons including long-range nuclear missiles.

(03-16-2009 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm going to have to ask WMD... What is a blackjack i googled it and I get eevrything from strip clubs to gambling DVD's.

Its the Russian clone of the B-1. The Ukraine has some as well, and our friends the Ukranians were happy to give USAF Technical Intelligence a chance to look them over and do a flight test.