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School Choice
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CrappiesNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #1
School Choice
This'll break your heart. It literally brought tears to my eyes when I heard it this morning on Bill Bennett's show.




Obama is against this. We have two magnet schools here, Davison Fine Arts and A.R. Johnson (Science and math-based) that are essentially scholarship-based where kids have to compete to attend. Look, some kids just can't be taught. They don't want to learn. Some are going to wind up on the back of a garbage truck. Why punish ALL?
03-03-2009 09:33 PM
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WoodlandsOwl Offline
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Post: #2
RE: School Choice
Call that doofus Eleanor Holmes Norton (who represents DC) and tell her to support this worthy cause.

Capitol Hill Office
Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton
2136 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Phone: 202 225-8050
Fax: 202 225-3002
(hearing impaired): 202 225-1904

District Offices
National Press Building
529 14th Street, N.W., Suite 900
Washington, D.C. 20045
Phone: 202 783-5065
Fax: 202 783-5211

2041 Martin Luther King Jr. Ave., S.E., Suite 238
Washington, D.C. 20020
Phone:202 678-8900
Fax:202 678-8844

*DC residents are also encouraged to email Congresswoman Norton at dc00.wyr@housemail.house.gov
03-03-2009 10:03 PM
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mlb Offline
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Post: #3
RE: School Choice
I thought that Obama said he supports the voucher program? Am I wrong on that?

As far as I'm concerned, Bush and Kennedy screwed up with NCLB. Schools have their hands tied as far as kicking kids out who don't work and only cause trouble (not to mention holding top kids back). Get rid of NCLB and do a real restructuring of the schools.

Of course, I'm not sure what can be done for inner-city schools. Good teachers won't teach there, the kids don't want to be there, the parents don't care if their kids go or do any of their homework. You can't expect teachers to be parents, so something has to be done to get the parents involved if anything is ever going to change there.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2009 08:57 AM by mlb.)
03-04-2009 08:57 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #4
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 08:57 AM)mlb Wrote:  I thought that Obama said he supports the voucher program? Am I wrong on that?

As far as I'm concerned, Bush and Kennedy screwed up with NCLB. Schools have their hands tied as far as kicking kids out who don't work and only cause trouble (not to mention holding top kids back). Get rid of NCLB and do a real restructuring of the schools.

Of course, I'm not sure what can be done for inner-city schools. Good teachers won't teach there, the kids don't want to be there, the parents don't care if their kids go or do any of their homework. You can't expect teachers to be parents, so something has to be done to get the parents involved if anything is ever going to change there.

How about starting with getting RID of the Dept. of Education and leave education of the kids to the states and communities and teachers? These damn bureaucrats don't know a blackboard from a diving board.

My Mom taught school for 32 years and never needed a damn government mandate about "how" and "what" to teach...She knew what worked.

Although I'm on board with vouchers.....I'm wary of them. Private schools that receive them may one day find themselves having to bow down to the government because they are essentially taking taxpayer funding.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2009 09:51 AM by Fo Shizzle.)
03-04-2009 09:50 AM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: School Choice
+1... The National mandate over what is to be taught to each student no matter what their aptitude is wrong. After NCLB passed, the government decided what subject matter was important and what could go out of the window. The government decided that trade courses (masonry, wood shop, metal shop, auto shop) and arts (music, art) were unimportant and didn't need to be funded anymore. This puts uninterested students in classes that they don't like and causes bad performance and behavior by those kids.
03-04-2009 12:40 PM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #6
RE: School Choice
NCLB is a joke.

State end of year testing is a joke.

Our School system is a joke.
03-04-2009 01:07 PM
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Post: #7
RE: School Choice
Wanna know why vouchers and magnet schools work? Hint: the reason is one of this nation's core reasons as to why we're the greatest nation on Earth.
03-04-2009 01:29 PM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #8
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 01:29 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Wanna know why vouchers and magnet schools work? Hint: the reason is one of this nation's core reasons as to why we're the greatest nation on Earth.

When I lived in Florida, my oldest went to a magnet school. It was a great system for chilldren that excelled in certain areas.
03-04-2009 01:32 PM
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Post: #9
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 01:32 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(03-04-2009 01:29 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Wanna know why vouchers and magnet schools work? Hint: the reason is one of this nation's core reasons as to why we're the greatest nation on Earth.

When I lived in Florida, my oldest went to a magnet school. It was a great system for chilldren that excelled in certain areas.

...and he had to compete to attend. Correct? That's the biggest compliment to vouchers and magnet schools, but it goes against liberal thinking. They want everyone to be "equal". They think they can raise everyone up by tearing the top down. Competition is anathema to liberalism. Ask yourself this, why in the hell were they allowed to lower educational standards during integration? They didn't think blacks could compete? ....and how f'n arrogant and condescending is that?
03-04-2009 01:35 PM
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uhmump95 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Private schools that receive them may one day find themselves having to bow down to the government because they are essentially taking taxpayer funding.
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. As soon as you start accepting money from the government, you know they are going come and start monitoring things. You know what will start happening then.

I am personally against vouchers because I do not believe the government should subsidize a person's investment in giving their child a private education.
03-04-2009 01:36 PM
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Post: #11
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 01:36 PM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-04-2009 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Private schools that receive them may one day find themselves having to bow down to the government because they are essentially taking taxpayer funding.
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. As soon as you start accepting money from the government, you know they are going come and start monitoring things. You know what will start happening then.

I am personally against vouchers because I do not believe the government should subsidize a person's investment in giving their child a private education.

Then the federal government needs to relinquish control. It's a complete and total failure in that department. We weren't in Iraq for 3 years before Democrats were saying we need to pull out, it's a failure, etc., why are you guys so invested in this failure? Turn education over to local municipalities, maybe with oversight from the state....but I'm not decided on that. Make them compete. If they're not working, you'll find out once the kid gets to the collegiate level.
03-04-2009 01:42 PM
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Fanatical Offline
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Post: #12
RE: School Choice
Was there any reasoning given as to why this should program should be ended?
03-04-2009 02:13 PM
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Post: #13
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 02:13 PM)Fanatical Wrote:  Was there any reasoning given as to why this should program should be ended?

Guess it isn't fair to the gaggle of adolescent dumbasses who would rather knock up girls and smoke weed than actually invest in their own education, study, and make something of themselves.
03-04-2009 02:21 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #14
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 01:29 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Wanna know why vouchers and magnet schools work? Hint: the reason is one of this nation's core reasons as to why we're the greatest nation on Earth.

I'd rather establish whether or not they work before addressing that question. My sense is that academic magnet schools work for those that attend, but it has more to do with being surrounded by those that value education. I suspect the system not only does not benefit those that don't attend, but makes their situation worse by siphoning resources and further concentrating troublemakers.

There are two central issues/constituencies here - (1) religious education advocates, and (2) libertarians that view education on a par with many other segments of society that should be verboten to government. Make no mistake that it is the first group that has driven the voucher issue in DC, and the primary opposition comes from their opponents.Whether it works or not is basically irrelevant to both sides of that issue (except when it suits their cause). The second group is just background noise except on internet message boards (sorry Kev and Fo).

http://action.secular.org/t/5367/campaig..._KEY=26803
http://blog.au.org/2008/10/08/charter-cr...r-schools/
03-04-2009 02:43 PM
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Post: #15
RE: School Choice
Background noise on message board contacts politicians, donates funds, answers polls, and is as politically-active as anyone else in the country, if not more. I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that just because one posts on a message board that their opinion and advocacy is innocuous.

BTW, with you discounting and dismissing vouchers and magnet schools, without offering any alternative, it seems like you would just jeopardize these kids' education in favor of the status quo.
03-04-2009 02:48 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #16
RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 01:42 PM)Rebel Wrote:  
(03-04-2009 01:36 PM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-04-2009 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Private schools that receive them may one day find themselves having to bow down to the government because they are essentially taking taxpayer funding.
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. As soon as you start accepting money from the government, you know they are going come and start monitoring things. You know what will start happening then.

I am personally against vouchers because I do not believe the government should subsidize a person's investment in giving their child a private education.

Then the federal government needs to relinquish control. It's a complete and total failure in that department. We weren't in Iraq for 3 years before Democrats were saying we need to pull out, it's a failure, etc., why are you guys so invested in this failure? Turn education over to local municipalities, maybe with oversight from the state....but I'm not decided on that. Make them compete. If they're not working, you'll find out once the kid gets to the collegiate level.

No problem here with ending federal control of education as I stated above..I'm not against vouchers btw...just warning of the danger of accepting the funds. The old "unintended consequences" thing..ya know?04-cheers
03-04-2009 03:35 PM
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RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 02:48 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Background noise on message board contacts politicians, donates funds, answers polls, and is as politically-active as anyone else in the country, if not more. I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that just because one posts on a message board that their opinion and advocacy is innocuous.

BTW, with you discounting and dismissing vouchers and magnet schools, without offering any alternative, it seems like you would just jeopardize these kids' education in favor of the status quo.

I didn't really advocate anything. I may have been dismissive of the libertarian perspective, but it seems clear that libertarians are a small, still politically weak faction - even if they have influence well beyond their numbers (which I'd agree with). Funding for religious schools raises a huge red flag with me. But, the religious school issue has been completely bypassed by the discussion in this thread, and (while I haven't researched this in depth and am accepting the position of certain polemicists) it seems highly likely that this entire issue has been forced in the culture war with church-state separation being a central issue. That hasn't been addressed at all here. If you can make the case that the DC School Voucher program was driven by libertarians, I'm certainly willing to listen.
03-04-2009 03:43 PM
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Post: #18
RE: School Choice
Where does the money come from? The taxpayers, no? And the student's parents are taxpayers, right? What if they're religious? I seriously don't see how this is a problem. Then again, I don't think it would be if everything was left up to the states. Last I checked, the 1st amendment applied to limitations placed on the federal government, not the state government.
03-04-2009 04:01 PM
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RE: School Choice
(03-04-2009 04:01 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Where does the money come from? The taxpayers, no? And the student's parents are taxpayers, right? What if they're religious? I seriously don't see how this is a problem. Then again, I don't think it would be if everything was left up to the states.

By the same token, why not leave the state out of it and let parents pay themselves if they want to go to private schools. I'm not willing to go along for the ride with state finance of religious institutions when the political agenda at hand is precisely to provide state sanction and finance of religion.

(03-04-2009 04:01 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Last I checked, the 1st amendment applied to limitations placed on the federal government, not the state government.


I'm not quite sure how or why, but the most complex (i.e. least easily understood) amendment to the constitution says you're wrong (insofar as it changes the scope of everything else in the constitution).

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charter...11-27.html Wrote:AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

Someone who's at least gone to law school may provide better insight, but the 17 words in bold almost certainly has the biggest and most ambiguous legal impact of any phrase in the constitution.
03-04-2009 04:50 PM
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Post: #20
RE: School Choice
Quote:nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

How does a religious school do any of these? Is there a right to be free from religion?
03-04-2009 04:55 PM
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