CollegeCard Wrote:I just can't be high on Doherty. Look at SMU this season. They are 6-18 (2-11), with a 287 RPI. I mean, ECU of all people beat them by 28 last night. If he can't even compete in CUSA, what's he going to do in NYC. I'd be shocked if he was hired and made them successful.

SMU has struggled since leaving the WAC...where SMU would be good one year...then bad the next.

Doherty is in his 2nd year at SMU...but to be fair to him...SMU had basically ZERO talent or even basic basketball Facilities to show off to recruits.

Just a month or two ago...SMU finally opened up their new $13 Million Crum Center which includes practice facilities for both men and women hoop teams for SMU.

Doherty actually signed several highly ranked HS Seniors this past Nov...so I think SMU knows the new facilities/rebounding should improve soon.

I think Doherty is actually a better recruiter than a game day coach...but in college hoops...without the players...even a good coach will lose a ton of games.

If...IF...Doherty can turn around SMU over the next few years...he will probably receive a few top/big school offers...but if he doesn't turn around SMU...then I'm not sure what will be next for him.

Longstrangetrip Wrote:Looks like Roberts is safe for now. Too bad for SJU.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3270582

Well...its a tough call for St Johns.

Roberts took over when the program was in shambles and going on probation...and St Johns is in danger of missing the Big East Tournament for the 3rd time out of Roberts 4 years at the helm.

Roberts has a 19-44 Big East Record...which might actually look "acceptable" considering the shape of the program was in when he took over.

Having grown up outside of NYC during "The Sweater" years...when St Johns WAS NYC Basketball...it just doesn't seem the same when St Johns isn't near the top of the Big East...as when they were...the city was A BUZZ.

MichaelSavage Wrote:I think Doherty is damaged goods for a big time basketball program after his UNC tenure.

Which is a shame because North Carolina threw him under the bus after he had to clean up the mess Dean Smith's good friend made.

MichaelSavage Wrote:Guthridge took UNC to 2 Final Fours in 3 years before retiring (Doherty takes over) and Williams picked right up where Guthridge left off taking them to a Final Four in his second year at UNC. So I don't think it was the talent (which UNC will always have plenty of), it was Doherty's coaching.

Guthridge also had Dean Smith's players, which were a bunch of NBA talent. If you want an example of a coach winning with another coach's players and then bailing before his recruiting class could come in there it is right there.

Longstrangetrip Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:That team was a lost cause with anyone.

You cant mean Doh's UNC team can you? I think the banner they got to hang might make that statement a little silly.

And the fact that you think it was that simple is a little silly as well. Doherty was going through the same mess that Cronin is going through at Cincinnati. VERY young players still maturing. And they ran him out before the fruits of his labor could be realized. That would be similar to UC running Cronin out at the end of this year, bringing in a new coach who wins with next year's team and then people saying "See, Mick couldn't win with that team but this coach did, it shows that Mick can't coach!". It's easy to bash a coach who had to rebuild a program and teach it how to win again. And Doherty had to rebuild North Carolina from the ground up just like Cronin is doing at Cincinnati. So it's stupid to say that the team Roy Williams had was the same team that Doherty had since Williams' team was Doherty's team with a year of experience and several years of rebuilding behind them.

CatsClaw Wrote:

Longstrangetrip Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:That team was a lost cause with anyone.

You cant mean Doh's UNC team can you? I think the banner they got to hang might make that statement a little silly.

And the fact that you think it was that simple is a little silly as well. Doherty was going through the same mess that Cronin is going through at Cincinnati. VERY young players still maturing. And they ran him out before the fruits of his labor could be realized. That would be similar to UC running Cronin out at the end of this year, bringing in a new coach who wins with next year's team and then people saying "See, Mick couldn't win with that team but this coach did, it shows that Mick can't coach!". It's easy to bash a coach who had to rebuild a program and teach it how to win again. And Doherty had to rebuild North Carolina from the ground up just like Cronin is doing at Cincinnati. So it's stupid to say that the team Roy Williams had was the same team that Doherty had since Williams' team was Doherty's team with a year of experience and several years of rebuilding behind them.

Fair points. MY point was that to say that team was a lost cause with ANYONE, as bit did, was silly because they won a title. Obviously, to me at least, that team was far from a lost cause with ANYONE. That was my point.

LOL at the notion of Doherty having to "rebuild" at UNC. He took over a team that just came off a Final Four! The team quit on him and wouldn't play for him, so he was axed. What coach worth his salt loses a team like that?

The chemistry of that team changed considerably after he left too. All it took was for a couple of head cases to graduate.

MichaelSavage Wrote:LOL at the notion of Doherty having to "rebuild" at UNC. He took over a team that just came off a Final Four! The team quit on him and wouldn't play for him, so he was axed. What coach worth his salt loses a team like that?

Oh please. Yay, he was given ONE good team. He also inherited a team that was upperclassmen laden, so you needed a good recruiting class. Guthridge game him a HORRIBLE recruiting class. So he had to bring in a bunch of young guys and rebuild that program. He had a roster full of freshmen in the freaking ACC. That's what happens when you inherit a program from a coach who gave you a crappy recruiting class.

MichaelSavage Wrote:LOL at the notion of Doherty having to "rebuild" at UNC. He took over a team that just came off a Final Four! The team quit on him and wouldn't play for him, so he was axed. What coach worth his salt loses a team like that?

One a side note, one problem that Doherty have that you and others refuse to admit, is that he had his legs cut out from under him prior to taking the North Carolina job:

According to Blue Blood[4] by Art Chansky (a longtime historian on the UNC program), Doherty was told on March 31 that he would not be allowed to return due to an irreparable rift with his players. Given the option of resigning or being fired, he resigned the next day.

According to Chansky, the seeds for Doherty's downfall were planted by decisions made soon after being named as coach. He announced that he would bring his entire staff from Notre Dame, leaving assistant coaches Phil Ford, Pat Sullivan and Dave Hanners out of jobs. He also forced out several longtime secretaries in the basketball office. In his first address to the team, he stated that he felt they hadn't done enough--something which jarred a group that had managed to make a Cinderella run to the Final Four in the previous season.

Typical Carolina garbage. I find it funny also that the players were "jarred" when he said they hadn't done enough. Considering North Carolina was a preseason favorite to win the national title and were ranked #1 at one point, I would say that a "cinderella" run to the Final Four and 22-14 record "wasn't enough". But typical North Carolina and their fans throwing him under the bus. Then praising Roy Williams who won with his Doherty's players and hasn't been to a Final Four since.

bitcruncher Wrote:The chemistry of that team changed considerably after he left too. All it took was for a couple of head cases to graduate.

Bingo!

CatsClaw Wrote:

MichaelSavage Wrote:LOL at the notion of Doherty having to "rebuild" at UNC. He took over a team that just came off a Final Four! The team quit on him and wouldn't play for him, so he was axed. What coach worth his salt loses a team like that?

One a side note, one problem that Doherty have that you and others refuse to admit, is that he had his legs cut out from under him prior to taking the North Carolina job:

According to Blue Blood[4] by Art Chansky (a longtime historian on the UNC program), Doherty was told on March 31 that he would not be allowed to return due to an irreparable rift with his players. Given the option of resigning or being fired, he resigned the next day.

According to Chansky, the seeds for Doherty's downfall were planted by decisions made soon after being named as coach. He announced that he would bring his entire staff from Notre Dame, leaving assistant coaches Phil Ford, Pat Sullivan and Dave Hanners out of jobs. He also forced out several longtime secretaries in the basketball office. In his first address to the team, he stated that he felt they hadn't done enough--something which jarred a group that had managed to make a Cinderella run to the Final Four in the previous season.

Typical Carolina garbage. I find it funny also that the players were "jarred" when he said they hadn't done enough. Considering North Carolina was a preseason favorite to win the national title and were ranked #1 at one point, I would say that a "cinderella" run to the Final Four and 22-14 record "wasn't enough". But typical North Carolina and their fans throwing him under the bus. Then praising Roy Williams who won with his Doherty's players and hasn't been to a Final Four since.

Yup, Cat's Claw is right here. UNC threw him under the bus, that was never a question. I was more worried about the guy cause of his SMU performance. But he's going to have at least one more year to prove himself since Roberts should be coming back. So we'll see whether he steps up , or not.

CatsClaw Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:The chemistry of that team changed considerably after he left too. All it took was for a couple of head cases to graduate.

Bingo!

It puts me in mind of Pacman and Chris Henry disrupting WVU in '04.

To the topic at hand, if PC makes the BE Tournament, all the coaches will be back for 07-08.

Providence plays UConn and Villanova @ home. That's a tough lineup.

St. Johns plays @ ND and WVU @ home. That ain't any easier.

DePaul plays @ UC and Pitt. No breaks there. I think there will end up being a 3-way tie for the last 2 spots in The BEast tourney.

In the head-to-head tiebreaker...

DePaul split with Providence and beat St. John's on the road.

Providence split with DePaul and lost @ St. John's.

St. John's beat Providence and lost to DePaul - both @ home .

That gives DePaul (2-1 against the other 2 schools) the head to head over St. John's. St. John's (1-1 against the other 2 schools) has the head-to-head over Providence. Providence has the head-to-head over DePaul (1-2 against the other 2 schools).

In my book, I'd have Providence last among the 3. But I don't remember The BEast criteria for tie-breakers.

bitcruncher Wrote:Providence plays UConn and Villanova @ home. That's a tough lineup.

St. Johns plays @ ND and WVU @ home. That ain't any easier.

DePaul plays @ UC and Pitt. No breaks there. I think there will end up being a 3-way tie for the last 2 spots in The BEast tourney.

In the head-to-head tiebreaker...

DePaul split with Providence and beat St. John's on the road.

Providence split with DePaul and lost @ St. John's.

St. John's beat Providence and lost to DePaul - both @ home .

That gives DePaul (2-1 against the other 2 schools) the head to head over St. John's. St. John's (1-1 against the other 2 schools) has the head-to-head over Providence. Providence has the head-to-head over DePaul (1-2 against the other 2 schools).

In my book, I'd have Providence last among the 3. But I don't remember The BEast criteria for tie-breakers.

Based on my reading of the tiebreaker rules, right now, I think the order is:

11. DePaul
12. SJU
13. PC

SJU stays home if they lose out and PC wins a game. DePaul misses the BE tourney if SJU wins a game and DePaul and PC lose out, by virtue of PC's win over UConn.

If any of those teams win one of their final games, it'll be a miracle.

However, if by some miracle one does, they're a shoo-in for a beating in the first round of The BEast tourney.

bitcruncher Wrote:I think there will end up being a 3-way tie for the last 2 spots in The BEast tourney.

I believe it would be for the last spot, not the last 2.

1. Georgetown
2. UConn
3. Louisville
4. ND
5. Marquette
6. WVU
7. Pitt
8. Cincinnati
9. Villanova
10. Syracuse
11. Seton Hall

OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:St John's needs to consider the A-10 along with Depaul.....those two schools are overmatched in the Big East. This isn't 1982 anymore for those two schools.

Oh yeah right, DePaul should move to the A10 so the BE can invite Ohio
DePaul had the #16 rated recruiting class by Rivals in 07
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/c...CID=730394
Just to show it wasn't a flash in the pan, Rivals ranked DePaul's 05 recruiting class #22. Wainwright is only in his 3rd year and with the class he had last year, he'll be there for 2 years unless they have a really bad year next year. DePaul is also in the top 50 attendance nationally. Big East isn't going to want them to go with the market they're in.