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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #21
 
Rick, I maintain that most of the real brass knuckle politics occurred on the Republican side.

I acknowledge that Bush probably won Florida by a few votes.The newspapers did a recount, and that's how I interpret what they came up with.

But brass knuckling abounded, and most of it was on the Republican side.

I need to read a book on this (and, thanks Rick, but I'll choose my own). But these are my impressions:

1. Katherine Harris let her partisan leanings show in the way she oversaw the process.
2. Deep hypocracy was reflected in the GOP demand that hand recounts be suppressed in general -- but that all military ballots should be counted, even when lacking any real evidence that they were cast on time.
3. Republicans wanted it more. They put more lawyers in Florida, and they had Enron to fly them around in one or more corporate jetss. Democrats, in terms of organization and cash, could not match the resources the GOP put into Florida ensuring a recount to their liking. Democrats, for instance, never instigated a riot.

I say all this having known, before 2000, what hanging chads and dangling chads were. I was in the room during a part of a 1994 fight over chads in which a state representative race hung in the balance.

Back in Ohio, in 1994, we found a way to settle the matter fairly. Ohio's equivalent of Katherine Harris at the time, a Republican, could have played partisan hardball and tried to ensure that a Republican won. And, to his credit, he did not do so.

In contrast, I was appalled by the way the Florida recount went.

Had Bush lost... had the tables been turned and had Bush lost by 500 votes in Florida, I genuinely question whether he would have been in gracious in defeat as Gore was. I say that because I believe the Republicans simply wanted it more.
09-15-2003 05:03 AM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #22
 
Quote:How I'd hate to be the guy who had to draw that thing.

These aren't "drawn."

Someone linked a database of county-by-county election results to GIS software, and the software did most of the work. It isn't hard.
09-15-2003 05:11 AM
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Post: #23
 
Which party employed attorneys for the sole purpose of casting aside military absentee ballots, and at the same time, tryed to get felons' votes to count?


I don't care if you are Republican, Libertarian, Democrat, etc., etc., etc......you screw with the military you don't have the friggin' RIGHT to run this country. Gore ought to have had his ****** beat.
09-15-2003 07:02 AM
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Post: #24
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
Quote:How I'd hate to be the guy who had to draw that thing.

These aren't "drawn."

Someone linked a database of county-by-county election results to GIS software, and the software did most of the work. It isn't hard.
Dude, you have no ****in life.
09-15-2003 08:59 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #25
 
RebelKev Wrote:Which party employed attorneys for the sole purpose of casting aside military absentee ballots, and at the same time, tryed to get felons' votes to count?


I don't care if you are Republican, Libertarian, Democrat, etc., etc., etc......you screw with the military you don't have the friggin' RIGHT to run this country. Gore ought to have had his ****** beat.
At issue was whether people were barred from voting because they were inaccurately being accused of not having the right to vote.

Florida, under Katherine Harris, did a terrible job of trying to strip the voter rolls of felons. Way too many people were taken off the rolls and unfairly denied the right to vote. I think we can agree that it is a terrible tragedy when anyone who has the right to vote is denied it because of a bureaucratic snafu.

That was the issue.

How did this happen? Stupidity. Making assumptions like "My list says James Jones from Orlando is a felon, and here is a James Jones from Orlando on the voting roll. Let's take him off."

And, I don't care what you say, it *isn't* messing with servicemen and women to insist they get their ballots postmarked by a certain day to give ordinary reasonable people some assurance they voted on or before Election Day.

To insist that this was too picky is to assert that servicemen and women deserve a special privlege -- namely, the right to vote after Election Day.

If you think you deserve that right, you can kiss my ******. I don't care who you are. Because everyone else has to get their to Board of Elections by Election Day or make sure they are postmarked. If this doesn't happen, those votes don't count.
09-15-2003 09:17 PM
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Post: #26
 
So you think APO mail is postmarked?
09-15-2003 09:39 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #27
 
RebelKev Wrote:So you think APO mail is postmarked?
Maybe they better start.
09-16-2003 07:06 AM
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Post: #28
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:So you think APO mail is postmarked?
Maybe they better start.
....so it is ok to change the game in the middle of it?

Oh, hell, what am I talking about, they already TRIED to change the damn game.


The Supreme Court only stated that if Florida wanted to recount, they had to recount EVERY COUNTY IN THE ENTIRE STATE. The Dems ONLY wanted to recount the Democratic Counties. Fair, huh?
09-16-2003 07:29 AM
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rickheel Offline
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Post: #29
 
I think the Republicans wanted to follow The RULE OF LAW as it was written at the time. The Dems wanted to CHANGE THE RULE OF LAW after the fact. That is the difference. Ms. Harris was doing her job trying to enforce the law as she was required.
Servicemen have always had their votes added after election day. It is the way it has been for years. I thought it particularly dirty that the Dems tried to exclude these.
As far as the riot, when you try to exclude those who belong in a room, they will riot, and I dont blame them.
As far as the lawyers, the Dems brought in as many lawyers as they thought they needed. Daily was as big a sleaze bag as I have ever seen. They had all the resourses they needed. In the end it came down to a court recognizing what the LAW was and enforcing it.
09-16-2003 11:51 AM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #30
 
RebelKev Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:So you think APO mail is postmarked?
Maybe they better start.
....so it is ok to change the game in the middle of it?

Oh, hell, what am I talking about, they already TRIED to change the damn game.


The Supreme Court only stated that if Florida wanted to recount, they had to recount EVERY COUNTY IN THE ENTIRE STATE. The Dems ONLY wanted to recount the Democratic Counties. Fair, huh?
I'm going by memory here, but my understanding is that state law was that if a ballot came in after Election Day, it had to be postmarked or notarized in order to count.

So, yes, if military mail was not being postmarked -- and I'm not sure why it would not have been -- then maybe it should be.

The postmark rule is entirely reasonable.

Democrats wanted a recount in counties they thought would benefit them. This was entirely logical. I watched this happen in 1994 in a legislative race that included parts of three counties.

Republicans were free to seek recounts in counties they figured would benefit them.

And if some state authority had the authority to insist each county board of elections do a recount, fine.

Better to try to count every vote -- even if it must be done by hand -- then not to do so.
09-16-2003 07:59 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #31
 
rickheel Wrote:I think the Republicans wanted to follow The RULE OF LAW as it was written at the time. The Dems wanted to CHANGE THE RULE OF LAW after the fact. That is the difference. Ms. Harris was doing her job trying to enforce the law as she was required.
Servicemen have always had their votes added after election day. It is the way it has been for years. I thought it particularly dirty that the Dems tried to exclude these.
As far as the riot, when you try to exclude those who belong in a room, they will riot, and I dont blame them.
As far as the lawyers, the Dems brought in as many lawyers as they thought they needed. Daily was as big a sleaze bag as I have ever seen. They had all the resourses they needed. In the end it came down to a court recognizing what the LAW was and enforcing it.
We don't agree on very much of this, Rickheel.

And you'll never convince me Harris was trying to enforce the law in an even-handed manner. She was looking for law that would support her predispositions.
09-16-2003 08:01 PM
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Post: #32
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
rickheel Wrote:I think the Republicans wanted to follow The RULE OF LAW as it was written at the time. The Dems wanted to CHANGE THE RULE OF LAW after the fact. That is the difference. Ms. Harris was doing her job trying to enforce the law as she was required.
Servicemen have always had their votes added after election day. It is the way it has been for years. I thought it particularly dirty that the Dems tried to exclude these.
  As far as the riot, when you try to exclude those who belong in a room, they will riot, and I dont blame them.
As far as the lawyers, the Dems brought in as many lawyers as they thought they needed. Daily was as big a sleaze bag as I have ever seen. They had all the resourses they needed. In the end it came down to a court recognizing what the LAW was and enforcing it.
We don't agree on very much of this, Rickheel.

And you'll never convince me Harris was trying to enforce the law in an even-handed manner. She was looking for law that would support her predispositions.
Then we should disregard California every year. Is that what you're saying?
09-16-2003 09:14 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #33
 
[quote="RebelKev"] [quote="Schadenfreude"] [quote="rickheel"] I think the Republicans wanted to follow The RULE OF LAW as it was written at the time. The Dems wanted to CHANGE THE RULE OF LAW after the fact. That is the difference. Ms. Harris was doing her job trying to enforce the law as she was required.
Servicemen have always had their votes added after election day. It is the way it has been for years. I thought it particularly dirty that the Dems tried to exclude these.
09-17-2003 08:42 PM
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Post: #34
 
....because these SAME F-ing ballots have been used every year and the only reason that it's NOW being brought up is because the Republicans are challenging them on a bigger scale?

I.e. I will elaborate for the intellectually-challenged:

If they are discriminatory and unfair now, they were when Gray Dufus was elected. Why wasn't there a concern then? Because a Liberal was elected.


When the people want a change, they aren't given it. As liberals think, the people are too damn stupid to know about a ballot and too damn stupid to know what they want. Liberal elitism at it's best. You idiots aren't supposed to be ABLE to live without them. They are your reason for being. You can't do ANYTHING without them. They want to control EVERYTHING about you. ...because you're too damn stupid to live your lives the way that they THINK you should be living.


....and isn't this BS saying blacks, Hispanics, and immigrants are too stupid to understand a ballot? Damn, what they can get away with. We have used punch-card ballots here for years and NEVER had any problems.
09-17-2003 09:10 PM
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Post: #35
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:So, yes, if military mail was not being postmarked -- and I'm not sure why it would not have been -- then maybe it should be.

The postmark rule is entirely reasonable.

Democrats wanted a recount in counties they thought would benefit them. This was entirely logical. I watched this happen in 1994 in a legislative race that included parts of three counties.

Republicans were free to seek recounts in counties they figured would benefit them.

And if some state authority had the authority to insist each county board of elections do a recount, fine.

Better to try to count every vote -- even if it must be done by hand -- then not to do so.
Ok, you're wrong. Military absentee ballots have ALWAYS been counted regardless of of date....and I said APO doesn't have a date. As far as Republicans only wanting to count certain counties, you're wrong as well(Show me a link). It they DID, they WERE wrong. The elections are ran by the state when it comes to national elections. You wanna recount, count them all. NOT just the ones that will benefit you. That's ALL the Supreme Court did. Nothing more, nothing less. They did their job while the Fla. Supreme Court was trying to re-write it. Also, ALL recounts done by private organizations showed Bush winning Fla. Ie, winning the electoral votes...Ie. making him "P"resident and NOT pResident as some of you liberals like to brand him.
09-17-2003 09:24 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #36
 
If undated military ballots have been pouring into boards of elections after Election Day, then they never ever should have been counted.
09-18-2003 07:06 AM
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Post: #37
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:If undated military ballots have been pouring into boards of elections after Election Day, then they never ever should have been counted.
Yeah, **** the military. :rolleyes:
09-18-2003 11:52 AM
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