The Knight Time Wrote:Oh, look, the liberals are back to go after Ms. Rice!!

Tell me, what exactly does Rice have to do with this conversation?

The 9/11 commision already established that 9/11 was beyond the control of any government at the time.

I guess when you're as pathetic as the liberals here are, you gotta harp on ANYTHING, right?

And, just for the record, Clinton was in office 8 years, Bush was in office 4 months when this happened.

9/11 had been planned 6 years in advance.

Go figure.

What else is new.

CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON
:cry: :cry: :cry:

Whiner.

Wuss.

No m,y point is that you want to talk lies and mistakes this is a prime example of the Piece of **** administration that Dubya....eeerr...I guess Dubya runs.

MU ATO Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Oh, look, the liberals are back to go after Ms. Rice!!

Tell me, what exactly does Rice have to do with this conversation?

The 9/11 commision already established that 9/11 was beyond the control of any government at the time.

I guess when you're as pathetic as the liberals here are, you gotta harp on ANYTHING, right?

And, just for the record, Clinton was in office 8 years, Bush was in office 4 months when this happened.

9/11 had been planned 6 years in advance.

Go figure.

What else is new.

CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON
:cry: :cry: :cry:

Whiner.

Wuss.

No m,y point is that you want to talk lies and mistakes this is a prime example of the Piece of **** administration that Dubya....eeerr...I guess Dubya runs.

Oh, that's right.

Bush is to blame for everything. Wahhhh!

It's typical of you idiot liberals to try and pin the blame for 9/11 on one woman.

dumb*** liberals.

MU ATO, If you DON'T think Clinton is relevant when it comes to the issue of terrorism, then you are more obtuse than anyone I've ever seen. Yeah, let's just investigate the Bush's 4 months.....let's see where that gets us. :rolleyes:

The Knight Time Wrote:Oh, look, the liberals are back to go after Ms. Rice!!

Tell me, what exactly does Rice have to do with this conversation?

The 9/11 commision already established that 9/11 was beyond the control of any government at the time.

I guess when you're as pathetic as the liberals here are, you gotta harp on ANYTHING, right?

And, just for the record, Clinton was in office 8 years, Bush was in office 4 months when this happened.

9/11 had been planned 6 years in advance.

For the record....

isn't Condi the National Security Advisor? As in, in charge of advising the President about National Security. I'd think her comments and actions are applicable in any service, security or 9/11 discussion. But that's just the crazy man in me linking national security with the National Security Advisor.

Also, isn't the period of time from January to September 8 months, not 4? Sorry, I know it's a technicality and all......

The Knight Time Wrote:I'm calling the fraud War Hero the democrats are trying to put in office- a FRAUD.

And Bush is a real war hero?

Quote:And, Schaud's explanation is absolutely hilarious.

First off, there have been absolutely no known ties between these servicemen and the Republican party, and 14 of them are actually registered democratic voters.  These men are simply writing a book about the TRUE John Kerry in Vietnam, and the Kerry boys can't stand it.

If you read my last post carefully, you should be able to see I was speculating about a connection between the Veterans In Favor Of Needless War (or whatever) and the Republican Party.

I may be incorrect.

It now looks to me like they are getting secret backing from rich conservative sugar daddies.

I ran a Whois for the Veterans In Favor Of Pissing Off More Arabs (or whatever) Web site, http://www.kerry-04.com:

[code:1]Registrant:   Publius Press, Inc.   P.O. Box 507   Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350   United States   Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com)   Domain Name: KERRY-04.COM      Created on: 11-Mar-04      Expires on: 11-Mar-05      Last Updated on: 26-Apr-04   Administrative Contact:      Alexander, Mark  renewals@federalist.com      Publius Press, Inc.      P.O. Box 507      Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350      United States      4238221825      Fax -- 4238221826   Technical Contact:      Alexander, Mark  renewals@federalist.com      Publius Press, Inc.      P.O. Box 507      Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350      United States      4238221825      Fax -- 4238221826   Domain servers in listed order:      A.NS.THEFED.COM      A.NS.TRESPASSERS-W.NET[/code:1]

In other words, the site is owned by Publius Press Inc., owner of the Federalist Patriot (http://www.thefed.com). And, as I just noticed, the donation link at kerry-04.com leads right to the donation page for the Federalist Patriot.

What is the Federalist Patriot, you ask? I wondered myself.

"The Federalist Patriot is the Internet's Journal of Record for the conservative revolution inspired by Ronald Reagan -- a revolution waged by the American people against the prospect of a tyrannical government that threatens the very liberty that gave it rise. "

In other words, they are pretty far off the right side of the map.

The Federalist Patriot claims it "is not sustained by any political, special interest or parent organization, and we accept no advertising. Our mission and operations are funded entirely by the voluntary financial support of our Patriot readers -- like you."

That sounds nice.

But I feel pretty confident these guys are living off a few rich conservative sugar daddies. And by extension, so are "American Patriots Against Following International Law" (or whatever).

Richard Mellon Scaife comes to mind. He loves dumping money into weird right wing causes, and he has frequently used his Pittsburgh newspaper to savage the Kerrys. (That's what brought on Teresa's "shove it" comment, incidentally -- a question from Scaife's paper's editorial page editor).

But that's just a guess.

We may never know who is propping up the Federalist Patriot -- and, by extension, those veterans.

But right wing money is certainly behind both -- money with an ax to grind.

As for Moore: He may have single-handedly cost Gore the 2000 election by endorsing Nader.

He wasn't allowed to speak at the convention. His movie wasn't praised onstage.

The fact, is Moore's movie is as much of a nuiscance for the Kerry campaign as it is an asset. It certainly isn't the move Kerry or the DNC would have put together had they had anything to do with it.

And, yeah, he was seen sitting next to Jimmy Carter at the convention.

So?

Carter is, what? 80? He's too old to give a **** who he's seen with.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:I'm calling the fraud War Hero the democrats are trying to put in office- a FRAUD.

And Bush is a real war hero?

Quote:And, Schaud's explanation is absolutely hilarious.

First off, there have been absolutely no known ties between these servicemen and the Republican party, and 14 of them are actually registered democratic voters.  These men are simply writing a book about the TRUE John Kerry in Vietnam, and the Kerry boys can't stand it.

If you read my last post carefully, you should be able to see I was speculating about a connection between the Veterans In Favor Of Needless War (or whatever) and the Republican Party.

I may be incorrect.

It now looks to me like they are getting secret backing from rich conservative sugar daddies.

I ran a Whois for the Veterans In Favor Of Pissing Off More Arabs (or whatever) Web site, http://www.kerry-04.com:

[code:1]Registrant:   Publius Press, Inc.   P.O. Box 507   Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350   United States   Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com)   Domain Name: KERRY-04.COM      Created on: 11-Mar-04      Expires on: 11-Mar-05      Last Updated on: 26-Apr-04   Administrative Contact:      Alexander, Mark  renewals@federalist.com      Publius Press, Inc.      P.O. Box 507      Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350      United States      4238221825      Fax -- 4238221826   Technical Contact:      Alexander, Mark  renewals@federalist.com      Publius Press, Inc.      P.O. Box 507      Lookout Mtn., Tennessee 37350      United States      4238221825      Fax -- 4238221826   Domain servers in listed order:      A.NS.THEFED.COM      A.NS.TRESPASSERS-W.NET[/code:1]

In other words, the site is owned by Publius Press Inc., owner of the Federalist Patriot (http://www.thefed.com). And, as I just noticed, the donation link at kerry-04.com leads right to the donation page for the Federalist Patriot.

What is the Federalist Patriot, you ask? I wondered myself.

"The Federalist Patriot is the Internet's Journal of Record for the conservative revolution inspired by Ronald Reagan -- a revolution waged by the American people against the prospect of a tyrannical government that threatens the very liberty that gave it rise. "

In other words, they are pretty far off the right side of the map.

The Federalist Patriot claims it "is not sustained by any political, special interest or parent organization, and we accept no advertising. Our mission and operations are funded entirely by the voluntary financial support of our Patriot readers -- like you."

That sounds nice.

But I feel pretty confident these guys are living off a few rich conservative sugar daddies. And by extension, so are "American Patriots Against Following International Law" (or whatever).

Richard Mellon Scaife comes to mind. He loves dumping money into weird right wing causes, and he has frequently used his Pittsburgh newspaper to savage the Kerrys. (That's what brought on Teresa's "shove it" comment, incidentally -- a question from Scaife's paper's editorial page editor).

But that's just a guess.

We may never know who is propping up the Federalist Patriot -- and, by extension, those veterans.

But right wing money is certainly behind both -- money with an ax to grind.

As for Moore: He may have single-handedly cost Gore the 2000 election by endorsing Nader.

He wasn't allowed to speak at the convention. His movie wasn't praised onstage.

The fact, is Moore's movie is as much of a nuiscance for the Kerry campaign as it is an asset. It certainly isn't the move Kerry or the DNC would have put together had they had anything to do with it.

And, yeah, he was seen sitting next to Jimmy Carter at the convention.

So?

Carter is, what? 80? He's too old to give a **** who he's seen with.

Bush doesn't portray himself to be a war hero Schad. Kerry, however, does. As far as "I ran a Whois for the Veterans In Favor Of Pissing Off More Arabs (or whatever) Web site, http://www.kerry-04.com:", well you should KNOW that is a low blow. "Pissing off more Arabs"? Yeah, as if they were all happy with us to begin with. Do a Whois on swiftvets.com Schad. It doesn't matter if they are being used, somewhat, by the Republican party. They are NOT doing it for political gain. Ask any vet how emotional the Vietnam War was/is. THAT'S why they don't want to see this POS in office. Like I said, should've stuck with Dean. At least he took a stand.

found some REALLY good stuff rebutting 9/11. i took whoever's advice it was and ran a search on google. it was more like hundreds of sites rather than thousands, but half the links pointed to two or three of the same articles. they are very good articles and very much worth reading. i was going to make my own comments on the points that the articles made, but there are too many of them and i haven't gotten to go through all of them yet. (believe it or not, my time is in fact limited, and with what limited time i do have, i don't spend all of it here).

i will say this to those that responded to me, i never said that fahrenheit 9/11 was anything more than a film that i believed was worth seeing. it IS worth seeing. i find it unfortunate (and i'm not saying that that is necessarily the case here) that most of the people aggressively protesting the film have not seen it. they are basing their criticisms off of people that have seen it and disagreed with it themselves. well, i believe there is a difference between disagreeing with something you have personally witnessed, and with taking the word of someone else that disagreed with that same thing. fahrenheit 9/11 does not have the same impact on people who don't follow politics as it does on the people that do. in turn, the articles criticizing it do not have the same impact on the people who have not seen the film as it does the people who have. basically, i believe people should make their own judgements. your own judgements will mean more to you than someone elses, and because we live in america, you are allowed and encouraged to make your own judgements. hell, as a citizen, it is your DUTY to make your own judgments.

in other words, many that oppose fahrenheit 9/11 are taking someone elses' word for it.

imho, it IS worth seeing. if you are opposed to paying money to see it, then go in the afternoon, buy a ticket to see spiderman, and "accidently" walk in to the wrong theater. or just download it off of the internet. it is available on kazaa. (i'm in college and i know these things.)


anyway, saying that something is worth watching, as i have done, does not mean that i agree with all of it. it doesn't necessarily mean i agree with ANY of it. it simply means that it is something that i think people should see.

my impression of the movie was that the issues he addresses are very real and very legit. the manner he went in addressing them was biased and borderlined unfair. the solutions that he (implied, but didn't directly address) were nonsensical, impractical, biased, unfair, and all around...well...what i've said already.

cheers.

brew

one more thing, i think about politics a lot. i have a lot of opinions and observations, but don't really find a lot of places where i can share them because too many people are too busy shouting at one another. this is a place i like. people disagree, but listen. unfortunately, that is rare. for someone trying to come to conclusions, this is a great place.

...and a few other things on top of that...

THE WAR IN IRAQ:

this is one of the things moore addresses. i'm going to disregard all of that and give my own thoughts.

a year or so ago before we went in (and i wish i'd found this place back then) my biggest fear about the war was not whether or not we'd win, but what we would do after saddam was forced out. i felt saddam needed to be forced out, but also felt that our capability of doing so was so overwhelming that it shouldn't even be an issue. what the issue should be was the aftermath.

our goal was to bring democracy to iraq. well, that's great, but the problem is that democracy is not an easy government to conduct. the u.s. takes it for granted, but democracy is a much greater ideal than a government. we don't see it that way because we are one of the few nations that has made it work for long periods of time (and even with US it hasn't worked ALL the time.)

in order for democracy to work, everyone must be willing to cooperate with one another and debate their differences in an academic setting. when it comes to iraq, we are not dealing with democrats, republicans, liberals and conservatives. we are dealing with extreme fanatical religious organizations that do not want to cooperate. we are talking about shiites, muslims, kerds, etc. that is not democracy. that is civil war. we had a civil war once when our democracy broke down, and although that was 150 years ago, the point remains the same. IN ORDER FOR DEMOCRACY TO WORK, PEOPLE MUST CONCEDE TO COOPERATION. asking an extremist to cooperate with another extremist is like asking michigan fans to cheer for ohio state in that football game every year. actually it's worse. actually, it is not all that practical.

that is something we should have considered before going in with the intention of bringing democracy to iraq. we needed a better plan. at the very least, we needed more time to discuss a better plan. winning the war was not the issue. everyone agreed that saddam needed to go. cleaning up the mess was the issue. we have yet to address that.

now comes the part where people ask me what my suggestions would have been, and here is my answer:

i have none. this is an observation of an obvious problem to which i have no solution. therefore i should not be president (and neather should most of our population) however, i don't see how that should stop me from being able to raise the issue (even if i am drunk)

pat yourselves on your backs. world history has proven democracy to be a great ideal, but a poor practice, but yet the united states has made it work. that is commendable and i am proud.


i will say this, it is wrong to blame bush for our nation's problems. too many people use problems as a weapon to defeat the person who is presiding. in reality, that is a temporary fix for problems that exist for other reasons and will continue to exist once that person is gone.

that is a whole nother belief on the role of corporations, but i'll save that for later.



man, this is the most i've had to say in awhile. hopefully someone will listen. most political sites i visit, too many people are too busy shouting to listen, so saying anything is pointless.


cheers again, go xavier and go coach miller!!!