(01-21-2017 09:13 AM)SICemDAWGS! Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 07:39 AM)Funslinger Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:54 AM)SICemDAWGS! Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:30 AM)Funslinger Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:22 AM)SICemDAWGS! Wrote:  His 39% assumes no devaluation of the dollar, no dramatic increase in unemployment, and no radical increases in government spending. If all values, which have shown volatility, remain the same it's golden. Assuming of course that the Americans paying the 39% flat tax don't get fed up and a) move or b) join the ranks of the unemployed. You would also need to maintain current levels of progression in sectors in order to maintain the US current share of the global market to keep the dollar in-line.

It's great in theory, and the numbers can be adapted to make a compelling argument for it. Theory and all economists reports I've seen have ZERO fallback or threshold for any radical changes in the global market or for human nature's inevitable draw to find the path of least resistance and to become comfortable and lackadaisical in regards to innovation and drive when the safety net threshold makes the possible gains less appealing.

Socialist economies have little ability to adapt or recover to collapses in the global market or radical changes. It's not my opinion, but rather the consensus from simple research and charting of the impacts and recoveries of global recessions on specific economies worldwide. Implementation of certain socialistic programs or the adaption thereof to a capitalistic economy can work, but when it comes to programs like UBI you begin to chip away at the driving factor and fear/reward that pushes the capitalist economy.

And you are forgetting that a UBI eliminates the need for the current welfare state. And the massive government oversight. Since everyone will get a UBI that oversight won't be necessary.

Plus, economies will still operate basically the same way.

Once the vast majority of tasks, also known as jobs, are automated, a UBI will be absolutely necessary unless goods and services become free.

I very much understand the concept, I believe you fail to understand the point of my counter. The 39% flat tax would bring the UBI current with no changes to the current number of those needing assistance and those paying into it. Those numbers won't remain constant as you admit. That 39% now must rise in order toaintain the UBI for an ever growing number needing it and a lower percentage of those enabling it. The tipping point is when those paying in are paying an exorbitant flat tax, but having a take-home income barely above UBI or being supplemented to achieve the UBI. Human nature will win out and the tipping point is achieved making in unsubstainable.

Your assertion that the economy won't change is not accounting for the global economy. Socialistic economies do not adapt well to changes in the global market. They do not have a built in buffer that capitalist economies have to weather recessions or to quickly return to the mean following one. In a vacuum they work as does UBI. The unfortunate thing is that the world is not run in a vacuum and outside interferences and human nature will and has always provided obstacles and variables that are not accounted for or quickly adjusted to.

You must've ignored the word automation. Once automation reaches a tipping point, maybe 80%, there will be little need for money. Goods and services will be made and performed by automated equipment. Food will be free, electricity will be free.

Energy if from a renewable source could be free, but who pays to maintain it? The grid and vehicles used to harness the power are not cheap, nor do they have the longevity for that to be remotely feasible, unless you once again have the government taxing at a much higher rate. Goods and services will be performed by automation, but who owns it? If I spent millions on automated technology then I wouldn't be giving the byproduct of the automation away, or are you prescribing that the government own all industries as well?

Automated equipment will eventually be capable of repairing other automated equipment. And constructing new automated equipment. Once that is possible, no one will own any business that produces goods and/or services. Machines will do everything required to provide the basic needs of humans.

(01-21-2017 01:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 07:39 AM)Funslinger Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:54 AM)SICemDAWGS! Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:30 AM)Funslinger Wrote:  

(01-21-2017 12:22 AM)SICemDAWGS! Wrote:  His 39% assumes no devaluation of the dollar, no dramatic increase in unemployment, and no radical increases in government spending. If all values, which have shown volatility, remain the same it's golden. Assuming of course that the Americans paying the 39% flat tax don't get fed up and a) move or b) join the ranks of the unemployed. You would also need to maintain current levels of progression in sectors in order to maintain the US current share of the global market to keep the dollar in-line.

It's great in theory, and the numbers can be adapted to make a compelling argument for it. Theory and all economists reports I've seen have ZERO fallback or threshold for any radical changes in the global market or for human nature's inevitable draw to find the path of least resistance and to become comfortable and lackadaisical in regards to innovation and drive when the safety net threshold makes the possible gains less appealing.

Socialist economies have little ability to adapt or recover to collapses in the global market or radical changes. It's not my opinion, but rather the consensus from simple research and charting of the impacts and recoveries of global recessions on specific economies worldwide. Implementation of certain socialistic programs or the adaption thereof to a capitalistic economy can work, but when it comes to programs like UBI you begin to chip away at the driving factor and fear/reward that pushes the capitalist economy.

And you are forgetting that a UBI eliminates the need for the current welfare state. And the massive government oversight. Since everyone will get a UBI that oversight won't be necessary.

Plus, economies will still operate basically the same way.

Once the vast majority of tasks, also known as jobs, are automated, a UBI will be absolutely necessary unless goods and services become free.

I very much understand the concept, I believe you fail to understand the point of my counter. The 39% flat tax would bring the UBI current with no changes to the current number of those needing assistance and those paying into it. Those numbers won't remain constant as you admit. That 39% now must rise in order toaintain the UBI for an ever growing number needing it and a lower percentage of those enabling it. The tipping point is when those paying in are paying an exorbitant flat tax, but having a take-home income barely above UBI or being supplemented to achieve the UBI. Human nature will win out and the tipping point is achieved making in unsubstainable.

Your assertion that the economy won't change is not accounting for the global economy. Socialistic economies do not adapt well to changes in the global market. They do not have a built in buffer that capitalist economies have to weather recessions or to quickly return to the mean following one. In a vacuum they work as does UBI. The unfortunate thing is that the world is not run in a vacuum and outside interferences and human nature will and has always provided obstacles and variables that are not accounted for or quickly adjusted to.

You must've ignored the word automation. Once automation reaches a tipping point, maybe 80%, there will be little need for money. Goods and services will be made and performed by automated equipment. Food will be free, electricity will be free.

Brave new world.

Robots do everything, including making more robots.

Everything is free.

Humans free to paint and sing.

Is this Utopia?

The robots would take care of supporting basic human needs. Humans will still have an incentive to create and make new things. Those humans could receive extra credits to receive more than just the basic needs required to support a basic, pleasant lifestyle.

The human struggle evolves.

The self-driving car-bomb will be thing too, sadly.

(01-22-2017 12:18 PM)USM@FTL Wrote:  The human struggle evolves.

The self-driving car-bomb will be thing too, sadly.

Hopefully, as the quality of life for those at the bottom improves, car bombs will be less of a threat.

It appears machine intelligence may be just around the corner.

Why It Matters That Human Poker Pros Are Getting Trounced By an AI
http://gizmodo.com/why-it-matters-that-h...socialflow

“The bot gets better and better every day,” said Chou in a Carnegie Mellon statement. “It’s like a tougher version of us.”

“The first couple of days, we had high hopes,” said Chou. “But every time we find a weakness, it learns from us and the weakness disappears the next day.”

Well, the AI Libratus successfully defeated the four human pros at heads up no limit Texas Hold 'Em. General AI is almost here!

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/libratus

The U.S. government is leading the charge on autonomous cars.

https://futurism.com/governments-are-inv...save-lives