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I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 10:07 AM
I don't understand Guantanamo. I don't get this whole Somali pirate situation. When the pirates go to rescue this lifeboat we blow it out of the water. Every combatant we find firing bullets at our troops we try them and put a bullet in their pre frontal cortex. I don't understand this. The message gets sent. and don't give me this "liberals won't let them try them". bull****! Liberals didn't set up Camp X-Ray. Enough of this nonsense. I hope we are jamming all communications. We box them in. We starve them out. We capture... we put them on trial.... we kill them...... We follow the rule of Law. We don't make laws up on the fly. We don't put people away to rot in prison.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Rebel - 04-12-2009 10:27 AM
...but they're trying to close down Camp X-Ray. So, your point is?
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - SumOfAllFears - 04-12-2009 10:38 AM
Obama is a weak coward. He is probably just trying to just pay the ransom, get on with it, then let the MSM cover for him. The MSM story to read, ObamaHero rescues the Captain hero. All the while the Whitehouse dog Gibbs will be barking "he did not BOW to the TERRORISTS. You cannot believe your own eyes, you have to believe what we tell you." We cannot harm the terrorists but we sure as H*LL can destroy your credibility, with our left wing hate machine. I'm sick of this ObamaBuffoon.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 10:54 AM
The point going forward is........ we try and kill these people. These pirates are caught in the act. Should be a quick trial....... Ya Think????? I think we waste too much time on this stuff. and how you can twist this as a negative on Obama............ MAKES ABSOLUTELY ZERO SENSE..... What else can America do? Other than blow the lifeboat out of the water. At the end of this the four Pirates will be arrested and after that..... I say kill them.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - smn1256 - 04-12-2009 11:00 AM
(04-12-2009 10:54 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: At the end of this the four Pirates will be arrested and after that..... I say kill them.
Mach, no argument from me. But you, me and everyone on this board knows that as soon as we capture them there will be lawyers and the ACLU screaming about their rights.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 11:02 AM
I can't remember the poster I think it was GG. He blamed the pirates on Obama. Saying these attacks are coming because Obama' weak. Duhhhhhhh!!!! These have been going on for years and have ramped up in the last three especially. Your blind hatred obscures your view. Clouds your judgement. We... America........ are doing everything right here. We wait them out in trying to save the Capt.'s life. Something you would think everybody would understand.
Some of you seem to hate democracy. You hate the American process. Your guy lost..... Deal with it. Love the American Process or GET OUT........ It's not the end of the world. America will still be America. Your senselessness will only isolate you guys further. I'm trying to help.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 11:04 AM
THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!!!!! That's what I don't get. They are pirates.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - smn1256 - 04-12-2009 11:07 AM
(04-12-2009 11:02 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: Some of you seem to hate democracy. You hate the American process. Your guy lost..... Deal with it. Love the American Process or GET OUT........ It's not the end of the world. America will still be America. Your senselessness will only isolate you guys further. I'm trying to help.
Mach, then why is Prop 8, a voter approved ballot, being fought in the courts? Is it because the left hates democracy? They hate the American process? They lost...deal with it. They should love the process or get out.....the world isn't over.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - smn1256 - 04-12-2009 11:07 AM
(04-12-2009 11:04 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!!!!! That's what I don't get. They are pirates.
Agreed. Do you think the ACLU will agree with us?
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 11:09 AM
That's good smn. Touche
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - SumOfAllFears - 04-12-2009 11:16 AM
It's not just the ACLU either, you got the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund fighting for illegal immigrants rights. Should they have the same rights as Americans even though they are here illegally? The courts are saying "yes" they do. And we taxpayers are paying for it.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Machiavelli - 04-12-2009 11:19 AM
I don't see any Al Quadea Legal Defense Funds. I don't see any PCLU branches down the street. Pirate Civil........
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - SumOfAllFears - 04-12-2009 11:29 AM
(04-12-2009 11:19 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: I don't see any Al Quadea Legal Defense Funds. I don't see any PCLU branches down the street. Pirate Civil........
Al-Qaeda defense fund is an AK-47 and a RPG. You are expected to die for jihad, remember.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Paul M - 04-12-2009 11:41 AM
(04-12-2009 11:19 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: I don't see any Al Quadea Legal Defense Funds. I don't see any PCLU branches down the street. Pirate Civil........
CAIR
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-12-2009 02:18 PM
(04-12-2009 10:07 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: I don't understand Guantanamo. I don't get this whole Somali pirate situation. When the pirates go to rescue this lifeboat we blow it out of the water. Every combatant we find firing bullets at our troops we try them and put a bullet in their pre frontal cortex. I don't understand this. The message gets sent. and don't give me this "liberals won't let them try them". bull****! Liberals didn't set up Camp X-Ray. Enough of this nonsense. I hope we are jamming all communications. We box them in. We starve them out. We capture... we put them on trial.... we kill them...... We follow the rule of Law. We don't make laws up on the fly. We don't put people away to rot in prison.
Only change I'd make to that is kill them first, then try them. Saves the cost of appeals. The mockery that Gitmo has become makes a compelling argument for killing them on the battlefield. In this case, the battlefield is a small boat.
A big BRAVO ZULU to the navy on this one.
And this operation has all the looks of a situation where Washington told the guys in the field to make the call. If so, that's the most positive thing to come out of the Obama administration yet.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Tripster - 04-12-2009 03:03 PM
(04-12-2009 11:02 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: I can't remember the poster I think it was GG. He blamed the pirates on Obama. Saying these attacks are coming because Obama' weak. Duhhhhhhh!!!! These have been going on for years and have ramped up in the last three especially. Your blind hatred obscures your view. Clouds your judgement. We... America........ are doing everything right here. We wait them out in trying to save the Capt.'s life. Something you would think everybody would understand.
Some of you seem to hate democracy. You hate the American process. Your guy lost..... Deal with it. Love the American Process or GET OUT........ It's not the end of the world. America will still be America. Your senselessness will only isolate you guys further. I'm trying to help.
I was surely one who says and will say that the Somalis left our Flag Alone as long as they knew GW Bush was there to simply obliterate them from the face of the Earth with Extreme Prejudice.
Now that we have "Everybody Loves Barry" in Da White Howze, we are going to see more and more of this kind of thing due to his pathetic weakness "OR" is it more a matter of strength of self will, so that he becomes the Complete and Total Master Destroyer ???
You can not be the King of Chaos if there is no 'Wanton Anarchy' to Lord Over after all. Maybe that is why he is snubbing Israel and sucking the ass-tit of every Crazed Radical Fundamentalist Terror Group he can physically get too .... he needs their brand of Murderous Abilities to accomplish his Single Goal ... to Rule All.
It really matters not in the End, because the Outcome will be the Exact same no matter which way old Barry Hussein goes .... and that is the Demise of Mankind.
And just for the Record ..... "We are NOT a Democracy .... We were and ARE a REPUBLIC" .... this is so Important in the way we approach and do things in the World and we have somehow forgotten this fact and we let Weaklings Talk us into Death and Destruction with PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT BE APPEASED "NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY or PROMISE TO THEM" .....
Some really horrible and bad times are soon at hand and I feel sorry for all you PC Peaceniks that believe there is "Some Basic Good in All Men" .... there ISN'T and there Never Was and There Never Will Be.
You make your self believe you are good when you see a Stray Dog and feed him once or twice or you give some Homeless Guy a couple of Bucks, BUT, then you go home, walk next door to your Neighbor and beat him senseless for not Returning Some Favor or Loan you made him.
Or you go half bonkers fantasizing over the Blond standing at the cross-walk in the Red Mini Skirt and Knee Boots and how you would love to lick her from her toes to the top of her head as you drive home to your Wife and Kids .... harmless fantasy right, after all, you FED A STRAY DOG TODAY !!!!!
You best start honing your Outdoor Survival Skills so you can keep your self and your family alive once the Sky Falls and Folks, Obama is Yankin' Tha Chain like a Big Daddy on the Sky Hooks .....
Take it or leave it .... it is all going to be the same no matter what ....
.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - GGniner - 04-12-2009 09:25 PM
(04-12-2009 11:02 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: I can't remember the poster I think it was GG. He blamed the pirates on Obama. Saying these attacks are coming because Obama' weak. Duhhhhhhh!!!! These have been going on for years and have ramped up in the last three especially. Your blind hatred obscures your view. Clouds your judgement. We... America........ are doing everything right here. We wait them out in trying to save the Capt.'s life. Something you would think everybody would understand.
I don't think I said that about the Pirates/obama, though I agree with most of the sentiments. Not just Obama, all the politics and b.s. related to everything from the left/dems/msm over the last 8 years was/is interpreted as nothing more than a loud message of weakness to the jackals the world over. It does embolden them, my point would be it increases the likelihood of attacks when we send signals of weakness to the world.
the safest we've been was immediately after Saddam fell, and Lybia ran to us to turn over their WMD program and Syria halted their programs and Iran attempted to cut a deal out of fear/survival.
That will not be happening again anytime soon.
Biden knew this too, and as usual let it slip during the election when he said Obama would be tested early and often. the Pirates are probably nothing compared to things that will occur during summer months.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - WoodlandsOwl - 04-12-2009 10:37 PM
(04-12-2009 11:04 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!!!!! That's what I don't get. They are pirates.
Oh ****..... not this AGAIN....Didn't we learn a lesson 16 years ago? Bomb the land bases and screw the Nation building.
April 13 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. military is considering attacks on pirate bases on land and aid for the Somali people to help stem ship hijackings off Africa’s east coast, defense officials said.
The military also is drawing up proposals to aid the fledgling Somalia government to train security forces and develop its own coast guard, said the officials, who requested anonymity. The plans will be presented to the Obama administration as it considers a coordinated U.S. government and international response to piracy, the officials said.
The effort follows the freeing yesterday of Richard Phillips, a U.S. cargo ship captain held hostage since April 8 by Somali pirates. Security analysts said making shipping lanes safe would require disrupting the pirates’ support network on land.
“There really isn’t a silver-bullet solution other than going into Somalia and rooting out the bases” of the pirates, said James Carafano, senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based group.
Any plan would have to be coordinated carefully, analysts said. In 1992, under then-President George H.W. Bush, U.S. forces that landed in Somalia to confront widespread starvation found themselves in the middle of a civil war. Forty-two Americans died before former President Bill Clinton pulled out the troops in 1994.
No such broad military effort is being seriously considered now, the defense officials said.
Need for Somali Support
The defense officials cautioned that any actions, whether diplomatic or military, would need the support of the Somali people, who are traditionally suspicious of foreign intervention.
President Barack Obama, who gave permission for the military operation to free Phillips yesterday, is coordinating the U.S. response to piracy with other countries and the shipping industry to reduce vessels’ vulnerability to attack, boost operations to foil attacks and prosecute any captured suspects, said a senior administration official.
The administration official, who requested anonymity, declined to provide further details.
U.S. officials said the goal of a response to the piracy problem would be to encourage Somalis to help clamp down on lawlessness and to ease poverty, an outgrowth of 18 years without a strong central government.
‘One Symptom’
“Piracy is one symptom of the difficult situation in Somalia,” said Laura Tischler, a State Department spokeswoman.
Under discussion are ways to send more direct food and agricultural aid to the country, the defense officials said.
The U.S. military’s African Command, or Africom, could lead the land-based effort. Unlike other commands, Africom doesn’t have large military units. It also has only one permanent base, in Djibouti. The staff of Africom is half civilian and half military personnel and includes representatives from the Departments of State, Treasury and Health and Human Services.
Any U.S. actions on the seas may be coordinated by the Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain.
Also, efforts to ferret out pirates may be jointly conducted with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the defense official said.
Joint Partnerships
The U.S. has used a similar partnership between the military and law enforcement to fight drug cartels in South and Central America.
U.S. action would come as new approaches to fight piracy have emerged over the past seven months. In August, countries increased ship escorts and naval patrols around the Gulf of Aden, site of most East African attacks. In December, the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed an anti-piracy resolution.
The UN measure allowed for attacks on pirate land bases and led to the formation of a 28-nation group that has met twice since January to coordinate diplomatic, legal and military efforts.
In January, the U.S. also signed an agreement with Kenya to prosecute suspected pirates handed over by the U.S. military. The U.S. will try anyone who attempts to hijack U.S. ships or hold U.S. captives, Tischler said.
Countries should use existing legal codes, such as the Law of the Sea Treaty and Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation, to develop a process for prosecuting pirates, U.S. Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen said.
‘Ample Legal Requirements’
There are “ample legal requirements and jurisdiction to be able to take action against these pirates,” Allen said yesterday on ABC’s “This Week.” “That’s what we should be doing.”
The Obama administration also is urging shipping companies and international maritime groups to employ private security forces and take steps such as unbolting ladders that pirates could use to board a vessel.
The U.S. should make sure to involve other countries, international aid organizations and the shipping industry in its plans, security analysts said.
Lack of coordination has been a major reason for the proliferation of piracy incidents, said Yonah Alexander, director of the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies’ International Center for Terrorism Studies, a Washington-based policy group.
Lack of Strategy
“Everyone is trying to water their own tree rather than looking at the whole forest,” said Alexander, co-author of the soon-to-be-published “Terror on the High Seas: From Piracy to Strategic Challenge.” “The international community doesn’t have a coherent, holistic strategy to deal with this.”
Current military efforts have had limited success, security analysts said. In January, the U.S. formed Task Force 151, which uses ships, helicopters and Marine Corps snipers to thwart piracy in the region.
The U.S. should take as its model the 1801 decision by then-President Thomas Jefferson to send a naval force to assault the land bases of Barbary pirates, who were extorting money from U.S. merchant ships off Libya’s coast, security analysts said.
The pirates eventually succumbed to a mixture of U.S. military and diplomatic pressure.
Before taking any action, though, the U.S. should come up with a plan so it isn’t caught unprepared like it was during its 1992 Somalia intervention, Carafano said.
“We need to be a little more thoughtful and rational” this time and develop a detailed strategy, he said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aYhvgOfyTmYA&refer=us
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - Tripster - 04-13-2009 06:02 AM
(04-12-2009 10:37 PM)WMD Owl Wrote: Oh ****..... not this AGAIN....Didn't we learn a lesson 16 years ago? Bomb the land bases and screw the Nation building.
I hope everyone reads your full post and they see that anywhere some Government or State Department "Employee or Spokesperson" had anything to say, it was said out of 10 Sides of his mouth to Cover Their Asses when they DO stupidly try to get the Somali Peoples Support and TRY to Train a bunch of Crazed Water Thugs how to be better Crazed Water Thugs.
I mean for PETES SAKE EVERYONE !!!! Just go grab the movie Black Hawk Down and use it as History Lesson Xray for trying to be FRIENDS WITH SOMALI CITIZENRY.
Obama may as well invite Osama bin Laden to "Da White Howze" and give him the 'Nobel Peace Prize' ...
.
RE: I don't get the whole negotiations with non nation state groups. - WoodlandsOwl - 04-13-2009 06:16 AM
(04-13-2009 06:02 AM)Tripster Wrote:(04-12-2009 10:37 PM)WMD Owl Wrote: Oh ****..... not this AGAIN....Didn't we learn a lesson 16 years ago? Bomb the land bases and screw the Nation building.
I hope everyone reads your full post and they see that anywhere some Government or State Department "Employee or Spokesperson" had anything to say, it was said out of 10 Sides of his mouth to Cover Their Asses when they DO stupidly try to get the Somali Peoples Support and TRY to Train a bunch of Crazed Water Thugs how to be better Crazed Water Thugs.
I mean for PETES SAKE EVERYONE !!!! Just go grab the movie Black Hawk Down and use it as History Lesson Xray for trying to be FRIENDS WITH SOMALI CITIZENRY.
Obama may as well invite Osama bin Laden to "Da White Howze" and give him the 'Nobel Peace Prize' ...
.
There is no way in Hell you can set up a ground base for a bunch of Federal Bureaucrats, warehouses for food and agriculural aid, and NOT have a fairly sizable Security Force ashore to protect these Bureaucrats from the thugs of Mogadishu as well as protect the food from ending up in the hands of various Somali Warlords (instead of the people) like it did last time.
Christ won't these idiots learn?